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Tom85
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Full or semi synthetic Reply with quote

I'm thinking of changing the oil and filter in my bike ( zx6r c1h) and not sure what oil to use is semi synthetic ok or do i need full synthetic? I've looked in my hand book and all i can find is: Recommended oil: api se, sf or sg, api sh or sj with jaso ma.
Viscosity: sae10w40
I understand the viscosity rating but the rest means nothing to me, can someone explain or even recommend a good oil to use. Cheers.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either or really.

Whatever oil you choose it's more important to use one of the correct weight and change it regularly.

Personally I'd also add make sure it's a bike specific oil.

Oil is like tyres, everyone has their own personal preference.

Advantages and disadvantages here;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil#Advantages

IMO for road use just chuck some decent semi-synth in of the correct weight and use the saving you've made over fully synth to put towards your next oil change. Also especially with the C1H make sure you pour some oil into the new filter before you attach the bike. It's good practice to do it on all bikes (and I always have), however some claim it can cause issues on the C1H if you start it with the filter empty after an oil change.
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Last edited by Wafer_Thin_Ham on 20:41 - 30 Sep 2011; edited 1 time in total
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Quack wrote:
Definitely use semi synth, because fully synth will wear your clutch down more or even burn it out.


Aye?

Any evidence to back this up. Ran fully synth in a few bikes including track bikes with no clutch wear/burn out issues.
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Howling TerrorOutOfOffice
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nabbed from wiki regarding synthetic oils.

Advantages
The technical advantages of synthetic motor oils include:[citation needed]
Measurably better low- and high-temperature viscosity performance at service temperature extremes
Better chemical & shear stability
Decreased evaporative loss
Resistance to oxidation, thermal breakdown, and oil sludge problems
Extended drain intervals with the environmental benefit of less oil waste.
Improved fuel economy in certain engine configurations.
Better lubrication during extreme cold weather starts
Longer engine life
Superior protection against "ash" and other deposit formation in engine hot spots (in particular in turbochargers and superchargers) for less oil burnoff and reduced chances of damaging oil passageway clogging.


Disadvantages

The disadvantages of synthetic motor oils include:
The lower friction[citation needed] may make them unsuitable for break-in (i.e., the initial run-in period of the vehicle), where friction is desirable to cause wear. However, improved engine-part machining has made break-in less critical than it once was. A select few cars (in general turbo- or supercharged) are factory filled with synthetic oil, usually to help minimize high-temperature oil degradation issues.
Potential decomposition problems in certain chemical environments (predominantly in industrial use.)
Potential stress cracking of plastic components made of polyoxymethylene (POM) in the presence of polyalphaolefin (PAO).
Synthetics do not hold lead in suspension as well as mineral oil, thus caution is advised when the engine is run on leaded fuel,[citation needed] which is still commonly used in aviation (avgas).[16]
In July 1996, Consumer Reports published the results of a two-year motor oil test involving a fleet of 75 New York taxi cabs and found no noticeable advantage of synthetic oil over regular mineral oil. In their article, they noted that "Big-city cabs don't see many cold start-ups or long periods of high-speed driving in extreme heat. But our test results relate to the most common type of severe service - stop-and-go city driving." According to their study, synthetic oil is "worth considering for extreme driving conditions: high ambient temperatures and high engine load, or very cold temperatures." [17]
Synthetic oils are not recommended in automotive rotary engines.[18]
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 20:50 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dr. Quack wrote:

Fully synth is for the track, it doesn't break down as easily, however it is only a guide line and depends on the rider preference I guess.


So again, how does this affect clutch wear, or burn it out?

It's not "For the track" it's advantages meant it's more suited to track use. Still more than suitable for the road, however it tends to be more pricey so if you're exclusively using the bike on the road then it's wasted money.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

To me the main advantage of synthetic oil is that it lasts longer and can put up with temp extremes better. First isn't really an advantage unless you leave the oil in far longer (hence very long oil change intervals on modern cars). 2nd is useful on things which can cook the oil, such as engines with turbos.

All the best

Keith
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 30 Sep 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I only use fully-synth on the KTM race bike.For the road bikes I buy the Hein Gericke/Motul semi-synth oil as it comes with a free oil filter,which normally retails for about £9 or so.

I always soak all oil filters in oil before being bolted onto a bike - and it is surprising just how much and how long the oil takes to soak into it.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:09 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

CHR15 wrote:
fully synthetic can contain friction modifiers.

wet clutches and friction modifiers aren't best friends.

if it hasn't got any in, jobs a gooden.




They live in car oil, not seen them in bike oils before.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:18 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

CHR15 wrote:

so you either make sure you buy the bike specific oil (more expensive?) or the semi.


Using car oils in bikes is a different debate. Laughing
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Tom85
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cheers for the replies. I never realised there was such a difference in price between the two so im pretty glad i dont need to be using fully synth to be honest. I'll go with a decent semi synthetic and see how it goes.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzer Thou wrote:
For the road bikes I buy the Hein Gericke/Motul semi-synth oil.


Please show me one single scrap of evidence that the Hein Gericke oil is the same as Motul?

The Hein Gericke is rated to API SG wich is obsolete, the Motul to at least SL which isn't. Both are rated to JASO MA but the point is if they are the exact same oil as many claim why are they rated differently?
The answer is they aren't the same oil unless you can prove otherwise.
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von1papen
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PostPosted: 10:45 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

Look around for a wholesaler or a shop that sells drums of the oil, I managed to pick up a 5 gallon drum of fully synthetic 10w40 for 45 quid, so a litre of oil is pittance (which is all I need on the CG)

It ain't bike specific but on the other hand my bike engine was designed to run on cheap mineral oil lol so I don't think it particularly matters!
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Dazbo666
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PostPosted: 12:46 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've previously only used Motul 10w40 bike specific semi-synth... if only because the original owner of my first bike used it, and it seemed to be doing the job so I didn't see a need to change.

However I've recently had to do an oil change on the Bandit while money was tight, so got some cheapie supermarket branded 10w40 semi synth (car oil), and thanfully the bike seems to be running just fine on it.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
Fizzer Thou wrote:
For the road bikes I buy the Hein Gericke/Motul semi-synth oil.


Please show me one single scrap of evidence that the Hein Gericke oil is the same as Motul?

The Hein Gericke is rated to API SG wich is obsolete, the Motul to at least SL which isn't. Both are rated to JASO MA but the point is if they are the exact same oil as many claim why are they rated differently?
The answer is they aren't the same oil unless you can prove otherwise.


I'm with you in principle, but it is possible to "underclaim" on an oil - in other words if a formulation has, say, API SL specification you can claim it has SH, since SL is backwards compatible with SH. Why would you do this? If you wanted to sell oil under more than one label without giving away that they are the same stuff. I'm not saying that Motul and/or HG do this, I have no idea if they do or not, but just pointing out the possibilities.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:
I'm with you in principle, but it is possible to "underclaim" on an oil - in other words if a formulation has, say, API SL specification you can claim it has SH, since SL is backwards compatible with SH. Why would you do this? If you wanted to sell oil under more than one label without giving away that they are the same stuff. I'm not saying that Motul and/or HG do this, I have no idea if they do or not, but just pointing out the possibilities.


I think it highly unlikely that a company would claim that their oil only met an obsolete standard rather than a current one assuming it did.

The rumour started that HG were using oil from the same refinery as Motul to it meets the same standards to it's the same oil rebranded yet no one seems to be able to pinpoint where these rumours started or who started them.

The HG oil may well be blended in the same refinery but that doesn't mean it is the same oil or indeed blended to the same standard.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 21:25 - 01 Oct 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

All true, except oils aren't blended at refineries, but at blend plants (some of which are co-located with refineries).

However, the possibility remains, however unlikely or unbelievable. It does happen.

I tend to agree though that that is a serious amount of under-claiming, making it unlikely.

One thing is for sure, HG don't make oil so they get it from somewhere, which could be a major supplier or might be an independent, unknown oil maker.
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tahrey
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 02 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:

I think it highly unlikely that a company would claim that their oil only met an obsolete standard rather than a current one assuming it did.


I know it may not be an entirely transferable concept, but I can only point to examples in other markets, such as Intel de-rating some of their higher speed CPUs (that cost the same to make as the cheaper ones, but have a lower chance of successfully passing QC; all they had to do was print a different rating label on top because the actual speed setting was done by the motherboard jumpers) because the market demand for the mid-range ones (costing, say, 2/3rds the price) was so much higher they actually made more money that way.

Apparently this is the story behind certain supermarket ownbrands as well. Actually bigger name products but with the serial numbers filed off and, e.g. a little extra salt (or water, or whatever) put in to make it taste a bit different and seem lower quality. Same production cost, lower selling price and margin, but because of a much greater volume of sale actually well worth the effort.

The weirdest thing about all this oil controversy (which is bizarre to someone who started out in cars...) ?? I haven't yet bought or tried fully synth in my bike because the people on the sales desk in service centres won't sell it to me. So far I haven't found it on the shelf, but ask if they have any of brand X but in the fully synth type. They axe me what my bike is, and following the answer damn near get into a red faced argument over whether or not I need it, want it, should be using it, and I just give up and buy the semi, even though I think the full synth may be beneficial because of the pasting my engine tends to get, often right from cold...

I'll probably order it off the net next time, though I normally wouldn't figure on buying such things unseen (or having heavy bottles of liquid posted) is a great idea. And probably get into an argument with the online shopping basket.

Jeez. Look. If it works for you, it friggin' works, OK? And don't we have a right to experiment? It's being sold for bikes of vaguely similar construction from the same manufacturer, and if it all goes tits up, I'll just drain it and run a bottle of engine flush through...
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Souleh
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 02 Nov 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only noticable difference is the semi synth motul is a dingy colour wheras the fully synth is an awesome red. Cool
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