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Incorrect CBT advice maybe? Clarification needed.

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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 10:27 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Incorrect CBT advice maybe? Clarification needed. Reply with quote

Following a lad who had been through the local CBT school.

Approaching a roundabout and he indicates right.
He then goes around the roundabout and indicates right after first exit to go straight on. The straight on was at the 12 o'clock position.

When I asked it was what he was told to do by CBT instructor.
Now unless the DSA has moved the goalposts I think that's wrong and possible dangerous. IMO it tempts car drivers to overtake on the inside expecting the biker to be turning right.

Now this is what I thought was the correct procedure for straight on at a roundabout (12 o'clock exit). Do not indicate on entry. When past the point of no return for first exit (i.e. cannot have turned) put on left indicator. This tells anyone waiting at that junction your intent and also anyone behind. Then lifesaver left and exit.

Basically as in this image borrowed from cambridgedrivingschool.net site...
https://www.cambridgedrivingschool.net/images/straight-ahead-on-roundabout.jpgexcept I would start left indicator at or just before 9 o'clock position.


However, caveat is if desired roundabout exit is after the 12 o'clock position enter with right indicator.

So, what is now correct?
If not what I though should I (a) mention it to CBT school (b) contact the DSA or (c) both?

Thanks in anticipation Thumbs Up
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arry
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

No indication onto roundabout, indicate left when past the first exit.

Been taught wrong.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 10:46 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like they've only read the first two clauses of the highway code suggestions.

Don't forget though the lad in question may have had a lot of info rammed into his head in one day. He may have got the wrong end of the stick or not remembered it exactly as taught.

gov.uk wrote:
186

Signals and position. When taking the first exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
you should not normally need to signal on approach
stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

When there are more than three lanes at the entrance to a roundabout, use the most appropriate lane on approach and through it.

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goto10
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Re: Incorrect CBT advice maybe? Clarification needed. Reply with quote

map wrote:

Do not indicate on entry. When past the point of no return for first exit (i.e. cannot have turned) put on left indicator. This tells anyone waiting at that junction your intent and also anyone behind. Then lifesaver left and exit.

Basically as in this image borrowed from cambridgedrivingschool.net site...
https://www.cambridgedrivingschool.net/images/straight-ahead-on-roundabout.jpg


Yeah that's correct - although once past the left turning a lifesaver to the right would be more beneficial, to make sure no one's about to cut you off. (I was also taught to check to my left whilst doing CBT, although when I did DAS [at a much better school] they said to forget that and check to my right if exiting in the left lane [once past last turning] - if you'd chosen to use the right lane then yes, lifesaver to the left) - examiner also prefer to see lifesavers that actually serve a purpose rather than a robotic glance to the left.
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Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 10:54 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
...Don't forget though the lad in question may have had a lot of info rammed into his head in one day. He may have got the wrong end of the stick or not remembered it exactly as taught....

Do not think so. Daughter went to same CBT school (as it's local) and when I asked she told me told to do the same.

So, thinking CBT school is teaching incorrect and potentially dangerous technique.

So, an email to DSA next?
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 10:57 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:
Do not think so. Daughter went to same CBT school (as it's local) and when I asked she told me told to do the same.

So, thinking CBT school is teaching incorrect and potentially dangerous technique.

So, an email to DSA next?


Ok, corroborating stories! I'd have a word with the school first, just ask them about it (as a concerned friend of the lad) and show them the HC bit I quoted. Report them to the DSA if they don't give a suitable response.
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supZ
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PostPosted: 12:08 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
No indication onto roundabout, indicate left when past the first exit.

Been taught wrong.


agreed.

thats how i was taught for my bike test a few year sago, and thats how i was taught when learning to drive many any moons ago
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Turkish
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with everything here.

In particular the point about the right lifesaver - you need to check for cars leaving at the same exit from the right hand lane.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's situational, I actually do it on some roundabouts where there appears to be a high chance of incoming spackers thinking I'm likely to be exiting at 9 o'clock, and a low chance of someone trying to sneak up the inside.

I actually had this conversation with my CBT instructor, who asked me why I'd done it. Answer was that if it makes spackers confused about what I'm up to, at least they're more likely to pause for thought than to pull out.

"Fair enough, don't do it on your test though" was the answer.

Teaching it as a default though, no. Just... no.
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Andrew122
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkish wrote:
Agree with everything here.

In particular the point about the right lifesaver - you need to check for cars leaving at the same exit from the right hand lane.

Same. I once received quite a scolding from an instructor for looking left on exit. Experience has since taught me that he was right for dishing it out; the right lifesaver while exiting has saved me from sticky situations once or twice.
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Turkish
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PostPosted: 12:32 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
if it makes spackers confused about what I'm up to, at least they're more likely to pause for thought than to pull out.


Good point. I almost always indicate right when going straight on at a mini roundabout for this very reason - mostly due to the fact that nobody indicates at the fecking things.
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Alpha-9
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I indicate right if i'm exiting past 12 o clock, not while i'm waiting to join the roundabout but once i'm on it and on the inside, then I turn it off once my exit is next and stick left indicator on to change lane or exit

If i'm going straight over and exiting at 12 I wont indicate unless its a dodgy roundabout and I think I need to be clearer about exiting

If it's first exit left i'll have my left indicator on as i'm joining and until i've exited

I think it makes my intentions clear Thumbs Up

Turkish wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
if it makes spackers confused about what I'm up to, at least they're more likely to pause for thought than to pull out.


Good point. I almost always indicate right when going straight on at a mini roundabout for this very reason - mostly due to the fact that nobody indicates at the fecking things.

Thats annoying, tha twould make me think you're turning right and if I was coming from the opposite direction i'd have to stop and wait for you to turn right, but then you'd go straight on then i'd say "then why you indicating you fucking mong"

had a guy with a massive dent in his car pull out a lane into my live lane whilst i was doing about 40, my first proper 'smidsy weave' slowed down right next to him still holding my horn until he finally just stared at me expressionless

Fucking mong.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpha-9 wrote:
Turkish wrote:
I almost always indicate right when going straight on at a mini roundabout for this very reason - mostly due to the fact that nobody indicates at the fecking things.

Thats annoying, tha twould make me think you're turning right and if I was coming from the opposite direction i'd have to stop and wait for you to turn right, but then you'd go straight on then i'd say "then why you indicating you fucking mong"

In this situation, there's another mong coming in from the side, my life and limbs are worth 10 seconds of your time, and you'll likely just ignore my indicator anyway. Razz

Karma will reward you for your reluctant patience. Karma
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Turkish
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PostPosted: 14:50 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpha-9 wrote:
Thats annoying, tha twould make me think you're turning right and if I was coming from the opposite direction i'd have to stop and wait for you


Thumbs Up

Mini roundabouts are shit on a bike mate, especially in the wet. You can't go over the centre, so you have to go the long way round, some drivers interpret your road position as your intention to turn LEFT and on many occasions I've had to swerve the nose of an over eager cager.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:55 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
In this situation, there's another mong coming in from the side, my life and limbs are worth 10 seconds of your time, and you'll likely just ignore my indicator anyway. Razz

Karma will reward you for your reluctant patience. Karma


I'd suggest instead of faffing with indicators that you just ride round the roundabouts faster and always take the rightmost of the valid lanes*.



*I'm talking post test technique here - don't straightline roundabouts at full speed on your test Wink
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Turkish wrote:
Thumbs Up

Mini roundabouts are shit on a bike mate, especially in the wet. You can't go over the centre, so you have to go the long way round, some drivers interpret your road position as your intention to turn LEFT and on many occasions I've had to swerve the nose of an over eager cager.


Go the short way then Wink
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Alpha-9
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
Turkish wrote:
Thumbs Up

Mini roundabouts are shit on a bike mate, especially in the wet. You can't go over the centre, so you have to go the long way round, some drivers interpret your road position as your intention to turn LEFT and on many occasions I've had to swerve the nose of an over eager cager.


Go the short way then Wink


Reminds me of 2 mini's I frequently undercut, because they're dumb and right after each other and there's hardly ever traffic in the way

Look at the angle on the second one, cunt in the rain
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=thurncourt+road+leicetser&hl=en&ll=52.638376,-1.059151&spn=0.016954,0.033088&sll=52.8382,-2.327815&sspn=8.644529,16.940918&hnear=Thurncourt+Rd,+Leicester,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.638325,-1.059011&panoid=6WmWjVIMO_YlJxVvgTEgRg&cbp=12,102.73,,1,9.34

Also note the little bicycle bollard things, quite fun to go through them at like 50 Wink

And actually my last line was bollocks thinking more about it, if you indicated left to show you were going straight over i'd keep going depending on the circs as i'd expect you to stop and wait for me before turning and cutting me off
Always give way to the right, right?
That confuses me sometimes, as on a miniroundabout with 4 exits, everyones on each others right
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cimbian
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PostPosted: 20:31 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was a fad about ten years ago wit all manner of drivers being told this bollocks... Bloody dangerous, car or bike.
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DonDino
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PostPosted: 21:47 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I indicate left after the last exit before the exit I'm taking - indicating right is confusing.

BUT... lifesaver *left* before exiting. Basically checking for anything sneaking up my left side as I am about to lean and turn to the left, so lifesaver left is was I was taught and passed the test doing, and what makes sense to me. Lifesaver right, not so much, as I am not about to lean and turn to the right. Sure someone could be coming my way from the right, but they could be coming in at any time on multilane roads and I don't do lifesavers on the straight every two seconds, only when I am about to change position or direction.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 21:58 - 25 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

DonDino wrote:
I indicate left after the last exit before the exit I'm taking - indicating right is confusing.

BUT... lifesaver *left* before exiting. Basically checking for anything sneaking up my left side as I am about to lean and turn to the left, so lifesaver left is was I was taught and passed the test doing, and what makes sense to me. Lifesaver right, not so much, as I am not about to lean and turn to the right. Sure someone could be coming my way from the right, but they could be coming in at any time on multilane roads and I don't do lifesavers on the straight every two seconds, only when I am about to change position or direction.


If you're riding in the left lane (taking primary position), then nothing can possibly be on your left once you've gone past the last turning (after having a quick glance, naturally), the biggest (and most likely) danger from this point on is a car cutting you off from the right (i.e. they're going straight over and decide to exit in the left lane)
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Atomic Punk
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PostPosted: 08:30 - 26 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

The no indicating before the first exit is what I always taught my students, and road positioning is also very important.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 26 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

goto10 wrote:
If you're riding in the left lane (taking primary position), then nothing can possibly be on your left once you've gone past the last turning

"Primary position?" Since you bring up a pedalist term, I should note that I have been undertaken by an insane pedalist who shot onto a wet, slippery roundabout at the end of a steep downhill road doing about 30mph, head down, lycra-clad arse wiggling in the air, oblivious to everything except keeping his speed up. Nearly creamed the mong while exiting, and rather wish that I had. Wink

I take the point that the big danger is coming from the right, but what are you going to do about it? You're already turning off anyway. Ride into the gutter (or further) on the off-chance that they're intending to drive right over the top of you if you don't? Thinking

Actually, thinking about it, the hazard is at exits before the one that we're planning to take, when we're likely to get t-boned and might have to dive up the exit to escape. If we're going to look right anywhere, it should be there, but that's exactly when we need to be watching for cars pulling out in front of us, so it's eyes front for me, thanks.
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goto10
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 26 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
goto10 wrote:
If you're riding in the left lane (taking primary position), then nothing can possibly be on your left once you've gone past the last turning

"Primary position?" Since you bring up a pedalist term, I should note that I have been undertaken by an insane pedalist who shot onto a wet, slippery roundabout at the end of a steep downhill road doing about 30mph, head down, lycra-clad arse wiggling in the air, oblivious to everything except keeping his speed up. Nearly creamed the mong while exiting, and rather wish that I had. Wink

Exactly, we're only interested in things that are heavier/faster than us Wink


Rogerborg wrote:

I take the point that the big danger is coming from the right, but what are you going to do about it?

I'd probably brake...or at least brace for impact.

Rogerborg wrote:

You're already turning off anyway. Ride into the gutter (or further) on the off-chance that they're intending to drive right over the top of you if you don't? Thinking

Actually, thinking about it, the hazard is at exits before the one that we're planning to take, when we're likely to get t-boned and might have to dive up the exit to escape. If we're going to look right anywhere, it should be there, but that's exactly when we need to be watching for cars pulling out in front of us, so it's eyes front for me, thanks.


A quick glance to the left as you approach/pass the junction is definitely more effective than a [left] lifesaver as you take the next exit. Combining it with a right-lifesaver before your exit is full of win.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:46 - 26 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

goto10 wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

I take the point that the big danger is coming from the right, but what are you going to do about it?

I'd probably brake...or at least brace for impact.

I'm finding it hard to picture a situation where braking would help unless the mong is already ahead of me.

I agree that it's good to be aware of other traffic on the roundabout (I habitually check my 4 Exclamation mirrors), I'm just having a problem with the idea of doing a right "lifesaver" before exiting.

Probably better to be relaxed at impact, ignorance is bliss. Wink
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 26 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
I'm finding it hard to picture a situation where braking would help unless the mong is already ahead of me.

I agree that it's good to be aware of other traffic on the roundabout (I habitually check my 4 Exclamation mirrors), I'm just having a problem with the idea of doing a right "lifesaver" before exiting.

Probably better to be relaxed at impact, ignorance is bliss. Wink


Swerve for complete evasion or a glancing blow; or accelerate to escape; brake if there's room to allow the vehicle in front.

I think everyone who's getting worried about this situation is too timid about roundabouts - if you're the fastest vehicle on the roundabout then the only place you need to worry about is ahead Smile

<edit> map, you had a word with them? or the DSA?
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