Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


How to carry luggage

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> General Bike Chat Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

SierraWhisky
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:24 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: How to carry luggage Reply with quote

Hi guys,

I've got to do a couple of trips to the Isle of Wight next year with work. It's only a 15 minute drive to the ferry then another 15 mins to where I'm staying. I've got about a weeks worth of clothes plus a few books and laptop to take.

I'm looking to purchase a top box/panniers or a combination. I've got a suzuki gs 125 1996 with no capability to attach anything to as far as I'm aware.

So, all and any advice on the best way to do this is going to be greatly appreciated!II'm new to all this maintenance stuff but more than willing to have a try! So please start with the basics!

Thanks in advance!

SW
____________________
Suzuki GS 125 ESM (1996)
Complete and utter novice.... but I will get the hang of this!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Fisty
Super Spammer



Joined: 11 Apr 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:25 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Weeks worth of kit? Rucksack and a tailpack or tank bag should do it.
____________________
Quietly and consistently taking the piss.
TL1000R | Hayabusa | ZXR400 | TL1000S | Bandit 400 V
Fatter and faster than Fret
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

Shillz
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 06 May 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:29 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rucksack on back, plus a bag bungee strapped to the passenger seat!

Sorted.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Slacker24seve...
World Chat Champion



Joined: 10 May 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:34 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shillz wrote:
Rucksack on back, plus a bag bungee strapped to the passenger seat!

Sorted.


Tankbag with a good sized rucksack bungied to the pillion seat.
____________________
Triumph Daytona 675 track bike + girlfriend's Honda Hornet 600
Selling a hack/winter bike for less than a grand? PM me.
Banger rallies are ace
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

SierraWhisky
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 26 Nov 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:35 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got a bergen that I've been using so far, but that's not going to be enough. I was thinking that if I did this properly I'd also have somewhere to put my lid and gloves when I park up.

I do like the idea of the tank bags - How secure are they?

Thanks

SW
____________________
Suzuki GS 125 ESM (1996)
Complete and utter novice.... but I will get the hang of this!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Flatbadger
World Chat Champion



Joined: 07 Apr 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:01 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been through the IOW in the summer and the main roads get clogged leading from Ryde, and other points I expect. Depending on exactly when/where you're going, be aware that you may want to filter quite a bit!

I'd like to get over there next summer for a night or two Thumbs Up
____________________
If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
You're in ISIS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

covent.gardens
World Clap Champion



Joined: 09 Jun 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:37 - 02 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

SierraWhisky wrote:
I do like the idea of the tank bags - How secure are they?

My one has seen 100mph and was happy with it. The magnets are strong and also comes with a headstock strap. It comes with bungees and hooks to secure to a non-magnetic tank but if you were totally paranoid about it coming off you could strap it down as well as use the magnets. I reckon it would be good for 200mph then. Smile

On the large side as far as tank bags go too.

Btw, if you meant secure against theft, they aren't secure at all. It turns into a backpack so you can take it with you.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

barrkel
World Chat Champion



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 02:25 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I detest tank bags because they get in between me and the bike. They can limit maneuverability at low speeds by interfering with the handlebars, and you have less space to move around on the bike when cornering etc.

Just bear it in mind before you go off and spending a bunch of money on one, you may not like it. Try balancing a stuffed backpack on your tank and see how you like it.

A very small tank bag used to hold no more than change, phone, and perhaps a map or GPS is easier to live with.

When I bring a laptop with me touring, I put the laptop on top of a wooden cutting board and wrap it up in a rubble sack, and use the resulting waterproof flat object as the floor of a duffel bag filled with clothes etc, also packed in rubble sacks - I don't trust the duffel bag to be waterproof. I then lash the duffel bag to my pillion seat with 200kg luggage straps, so that it doesn't move at all in any circumstances - last thing you want in cornering is a heavy load shifting. The cutting board stops the tension of the straps from applying a bending force to the laptop with the seat pushing up in the middle. Screen typically ends up with a few dirty marks from the keyboard being pushed against it, but no permanent damage.

You can put a lot more weight on the pillion seat than in a top-box. Handling is far more affected by weight further back over the rear wheel, and the leverage from bumps etc. means the subframe attachment points for the top-box, or the top-box mount itself, may snap. I've broken a rack in the past with relatively small loads over 500 mile distances. Higher quality racks / mounts (Givi etc.) are worth it here over things like sw-motech.
____________________
Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

tracks
Nitrous Nuisance



Joined: 01 Nov 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 08:53 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

May sound obvious but remember to completely power down your laptop so the HDD is parked. If it's in sleep or hibernate mode you could knacker the HDD with vibration / sudden movements (unless you have an SSD of course)
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Kradmelder
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:26 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

i hate anything on my back except a camelbak. It tires you out and is uncomfortable if you need to stand.

I use a dry bag and cargo net and a tank bag for things I may need on the road, like tyre repair kit, tubes, compressor, first aid kit fire arm, cell phone, wallet

Tank bags get in the way a bit when standing, but it is convenient.

This set up for 3500 km 1 week trip

https://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m270/hvandermerwe62/2012ecape/IMG-20120108-00027.jpg

https://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m270/hvandermerwe62/2012ecape/IMG-20120109-00034.jpg

https://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m270/hvandermerwe62/2012ecape/IMG-20120109-00029.jpg

The extra bag on the back has tyre levers and other bike kit like chain lube and cleaner, chain brush, and oros ornage concentrate that i add to the water in my camelbak. When the water iis like 35 C and warm, or is a bit brackish, it makes it more drinkable. 100 km from any town on remote roads in high 30s heat, hydration and carrying liquids is important etc.
____________________
2011 KTM 990 Dakar
2009 BMW 1200 GS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Peirre oBollox
Could Be A Chat Bot



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 10:40 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

A good quality roll bag strapped to the back seat will carry more than enough stuff.
Ortlieb bags are the best, but cheaper alternatives are available such as a 60Ltr LOMO https://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/dry-bag-holdalls-60L.html
or the smaller 40ltr bag https://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/dry-bag-holdalls.html
The LOMO bags where recently featured in one on the equipment write ups in a bike mag (no doubt someone will tell me which one) and sales have rocketed as prices are 1/2 the price of Ortliebs, and they ran out of stock shortly after, but new stock is ariving this week, and pre-orders are being taken.
I`ve ordered 1 of each myself
____________________
I accept no responsibility for swearing, drinking, motorcycle riding or your pregnant teenage daughter.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kradmelder
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 12:45 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peirre oBollox wrote:
A good quality roll bag strapped to the back seat will carry more than enough stuff.
Ortlieb bags are the best, but cheaper alternatives are available such as a 60Ltr LOMO https://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/dry-bag-holdalls-60L.html
or the smaller 40ltr bag https://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/dry-bag-holdalls.html
The LOMO bags where recently featured in one on the equipment write ups in a bike mag (no doubt someone will tell me which one) and sales have rocketed as prices are 1/2 the price of Ortliebs, and they ran out of stock shortly after, but new stock is ariving this week, and pre-orders are being taken.
I`ve ordered 1 of each myself


I go for the straping for one main reason: any off on gravel and panniers can get ripped (soft luggage) or broken (hard luggage), or the racks broken. Then you are screwed, stuck with luggage on the side of the road: unless you are ewan and charlie with support vehicles. Strap on, you take extra straps and can tie everything on. The only disadvantage is a slightly higher centre of gravity.

Cargo net is my preferred option for ease uf use, but I use straps as well when there are multiple items like bag, tent extra bag etc. unused straps I carry in the small bag with bike stuff.

A cargo net also gives me the option to keep adding stuff on route, and not suffer 'panniers are full'.

Stuff often includes a box of half eaten pizza, a six pack of beer, biltong Mr. Green

Like have a pizza for supper, and the next morning ride a bit and eat the left overs for brekkie on the side of the road, washed down with a beer and feel soory for the cagers stuck on the tar and stopping to eat at those horrible ultra city things.
____________________
2011 KTM 990 Dakar
2009 BMW 1200 GS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Tarmacsurfer
World Chat Champion



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:02 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
I detest tank bags because they get in between me and the bike. They can limit maneuverability at low speeds by interfering with the handlebars, and you have less space to move around on the bike when cornering etc.


Never had either problem with any tank bag/bike combination and I've tried a fair few Thinking

Krad covered it - "cargo net". I've transported everything from a Dyson to half of another bike using the things. Add a few bungies for more piece of mind if so inclined.

As to the comments about backpacks, while I'm sure many of you use them every day with no problems I wouldn't personally risk it. A good mate of mine lost the use of his legs after coming off with his work suit and a pair of shoes in a backpack, he was wearing armoured textiles. Heel of one of his shoes comprehensively smashed a vertebrae and left him paralysed.
____________________
I'm immortal. Well, so far.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kradmelder
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:17 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarmacsurfer wrote:
barrkel wrote:
I detest tank bags because they get in between me and the bike. They can limit maneuverability at low speeds by interfering with the handlebars, and you have less space to move around on the bike when cornering etc.


Never had either problem with any tank bag/bike combination and I've tried a fair few Thinking

Krad covered it - "cargo net". I've transported everything from a Dyson to half of another bike using the things. Add a few bungies for more piece of mind if so inclined.

As to the comments about backpacks, while I'm sure many of you use them every day with no problems I wouldn't personally risk it. A good mate of mine lost the use of his legs after coming off with his work suit and a pair of shoes in a backpack, he was wearing armoured textiles. Heel of one of his shoes comprehensively smashed a vertebrae and left him paralysed.


Interesting about the paralysis. I always figured a back pack would be bad in an off but didnt figure that bad. I took it as a comfort thing. Why have a weight pulling at my shoulders all day? Im not a donkey, let the bike carry the stuff, not me. I even used to tie my fluids on the back, but too much PT to get off the bike, undo the cargo get to get a drink. And after a few leaks making a mess and a shattered thermos from ruts, I gave it up and went the camelbak route. Now I can drink on route.

I figure the cargo arrangement I use doesnt look pretty and neat like panniers and designer luggage, and makes my bike look like a loaded donkey, but it is fully functional, and adaptable. As they say, the donkey doesnt fuck because he is pretty, he fucks because he is persistent Mr. Green
____________________
2011 KTM 990 Dakar
2009 BMW 1200 GS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Tarmacsurfer
World Chat Champion



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:39 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never used them for pretty much that logic, don't find backpacks all that comfortable and it's a massive wind drag. Plus you can't fit a coffee table/Dyson/half a ZX6R in a pack Very Happy
____________________
I'm immortal. Well, so far.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

barrkel
World Chat Champion



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:21 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarmacsurfer wrote:
Never had either problem with any tank bag/bike combination and I've tried a fair few


Some people have shorter arms than others?

Tarmacsurfer wrote:
Krad covered it - "cargo net". I've transported everything from a Dyson to half of another bike using the things. Add a few bungies for more piece of mind if so inclined.


I rode many very twisty roads in the Spanish Pyrenees, loaded up with perhaps 20kg of bag on the back. The bike was flipping back and forth quite quickly, sometimes to the point of scraping the footpegs. I would not have been comfortable doing that if there was any elasticity in the attachment.

Tarmacsurfer wrote:
As to the comments about backpacks, while I'm sure many of you use them every day with no problems I wouldn't personally risk it.


Same thing with chains around your body; cutting through internal organs, or carotid artery if over the shoulder, is reasonably common.
____________________
Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

fatjames
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Jul 2011
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:42 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep thinking about getting a tail pack. It would be nice to not have to wear my back every time I go out. Are there any recommendations for a tail pack that would cost less than £40, be quite waterproof and connect/disconnect quite easily? (Leaving the straps on the bike)

Thanks
FJ
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Superduke
Derestricted Danger



Joined: 30 Nov 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:08 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have Kriega and love the gear
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Peirre oBollox
Could Be A Chat Bot



Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:29 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatjames wrote:
I keep thinking about getting a tail pack. It would be nice to not have to wear my back every time I go out. Are there any recommendations for a tail pack that would cost less than £40, be quite waterproof and connect/disconnect quite easily? (Leaving the straps on the bike)

Thanks
FJ

The cheapest option would be try strapping the backpack to the pillion seat. If it needs to be waterproof, wrap it in a bin liner
Superduke wrote:
I have Kriega and love the gear

but a kriega won`t be in FJ`s price range
____________________
I accept no responsibility for swearing, drinking, motorcycle riding or your pregnant teenage daughter.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Tarmacsurfer
World Chat Champion



Joined: 29 Jun 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:46 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

barrkel wrote:
I would not have been comfortable doing that if there was any elasticity in the attachment.


If there is movement then you're not using the nets correctly, I've regularly carried touring gear netted on through all sorts of roads, twisties through to traffic carving. Not an issue. Just look at the roads Krad posts pictures of, they're not exactly smooth tarmac - elastic strapping wouldn't work well if it was loose (although it also sounds like he uses zip straps alongside a cargo net).

Each unto their own Thumbs Up

As to your comment about chains, saw a picture in another thread earlier of someone with a tyre around his middle. My first thought was "That'd bloody well hurt!" Laughing

Getting back on topic, personally I'd either go with a backpack bungied to the bike or pick up a set of soft panniers, throwovers work well and security isn't an issue as you can just pick them up and carry them if you leave the bike. Not great for touring but fine for just carrying shit from A to B. You'll pick up a cheap set for less than forty quid.
____________________
I'm immortal. Well, so far.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

ukdiceman
Nitrous Nuisance



Joined: 19 Sep 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:44 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Peirre oBollox wrote:
A good quality roll bag strapped to the back seat will carry more than enough stuff.
Ortlieb bags are the best, but cheaper alternatives are available such as a 60Ltr LOMO https://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/dry-bag-holdalls-60L.html
or the smaller 40ltr bag https://www.ewetsuits.com/acatalog/dry-bag-holdalls.html
The LOMO bags where recently featured in one on the equipment write ups in a bike mag (no doubt someone will tell me which one) and sales have rocketed as prices are 1/2 the price of Ortliebs, and they ran out of stock shortly after, but new stock is ariving this week, and pre-orders are being taken.
I`ve ordered 1 of each myself


+1 for this, just ordered one of their rucksacks which got a best buy in a recent group test, will be ordering one of these bags next.
____________________
FZ6 Fazer
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kradmelder
World Chat Champion



Joined: 13 Jun 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:11 - 03 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tarmacsurfer wrote:
barrkel wrote:
I would not have been comfortable doing that if there was any elasticity in the attachment.


If there is movement then you're not using the nets correctly, I've regularly carried touring gear netted on through all sorts of roads, twisties through to traffic carving. Not an issue. Just look at the roads Krad posts pictures of, they're not exactly smooth tarmac - elastic strapping wouldn't work well if it was loose (although it also sounds like he uses zip straps alongside a cargo net).

Each unto their own Thumbs Up

As to your comment about chains, saw a picture in another thread earlier of someone with a tyre around his middle. My first thought was "That'd bloody well hurt!" Laughing

Getting back on topic, personally I'd either go with a backpack bungied to the bike or pick up a set of soft panniers, throwovers work well and security isn't an issue as you can just pick them up and carry them if you leave the bike. Not great for touring but fine for just carrying shit from A to B. You'll pick up a cheap set for less than forty quid.


+100 on the net. Nothing shifts. And I do bad roads. The cargo net even ties my lap top and lunch for daily commute. On long trips with many bags, tie down straps as well for extra stability. I don't find bungies very stable. Too much give. Trucks use such straps for massive loads and it is stable. I've brought home bike tyres to home appliances to piles of new bedding and pillows with a cargo net. If the net is tight it is stable. A must for me on abike is put a bigger base plate on with slots to tie things so I don't have rely on just pillion handles. Even my laptop must be secured daily.

Bin liners tear in the wind at high speed.it is ok for a commute, but not for a long trip. The only way I found to keep kit dry in our heavy storms is to cough up for a dry bag

A top box limits you to the size of the box. A plate I take everything from luggage to a 10 kg sac of potatoes, box of veggies, pool cleaner etc
____________________
2011 KTM 990 Dakar
2009 BMW 1200 GS
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

barrkel
World Chat Champion



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 06:23 - 04 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kradmelder wrote:
+100 on the net. Nothing shifts.


Someone should link to some of these nets then. I have a couple of cargo nets, but I wouldn't trust them for much more than a helmet on the pillion seat on a town trip to pick someone up, or to keep a jacket on top of an existing pile, or to tie down flapping bits.

Kradmelder wrote:
And I do bad roads.


I've dropped my bike on a steep slope, with the luggage taking the impact the way it sticks out. The luggage didn't move even with the entire weight of the bike on it. I don't think anything elastic would hold that. The luggage straps I use are the same kind of tech used on trucks for tying down freight, only smaller with correspondingly lower ratings (200dN, approximately 200kg). I use two, in separate directions.

Bungees are a joke. They have to be stretched to the elastic limit to hold down heavy objects without movement, and then you have the risk of one slipping out of your hand and someone losing an eye. I use them on my scooter to attach things to my pillion seat when they won't fit in the top-box, but it's typically bulky items like kitchen roll multipacks or boxed electrical goods, low density things carried over short distances.

Kradmelder wrote:
Bin liners tear in the wind at high speed.it is ok for a commute, but not for a long trip. The only way I found to keep kit dry in our heavy storms is to cough up for a dry bag


I use rubble sacks inside canvas duffle / gym bags. Rubble sacks won't tear in the wind on their own either though. As their name indicates, they're strong enough to hold rocks, gravel, etc. Very difficult to tear, and even when punctured, the tear doesn't spread. I've gone through some torrential rain on the continent with this setup, and no rain got through to any clothes or electronics.
____________________
Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

magpiemale
Traffic Copper



Joined: 04 Feb 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:16 - 04 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would Just wack on a top Box with a large 60-100 ltr roll top waterproof duffle bag attached with rok straps,or Just use the bag
____________________
NSR125 1992 (sold) kawasaki Z750S,fazer FZ1 07 now gone present bike 2012 fz1s Fazer,beowulf rad protector,heated grips,sw motech gps holder,power socket.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

barrkel
World Chat Champion



Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 03:30 - 05 Dec 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

magpiemale wrote:
I would Just wack on a top Box with a large 60-100 ltr roll top waterproof duffle bag attached with rok straps,or Just use the bag


I have Rok straps too, both small and large ones, better and safer than bungees, but again not suitable for touring with a heavy load of luggage. OK for non-spirited riding.

Because they use a loop attachment mechanism, they can be more solidly attached than a hook. I used them to lash my backpack to an MP3 I rented in California. I brought bungees with me too, but they had nothing they could hook onto - the pillion handles had the wrong diameter for the hooks.
____________________
Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 13 years, 126 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> General Bike Chat All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.13 Sec - Server Load: 0.58 - MySQL Queries: 14 - Page Size: 144.49 Kb