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| The999Kid |
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 The999Kid World Chat Champion

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 G The Voice of Reason
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| Turkish |
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 Turkish Crazy Courier

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| ElBandido |
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 ElBandido Renault 5 Driver

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| BTTD |
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 BTTD World Chat Champion
Joined: 22 Nov 2012 Karma :   
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 Posted: 11:36 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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When I first got a bigger heavier bike I had a couple of practices in a local B&Q car park on an early Sunday morning just to get the feel of it.
Didn't mark anything out with chalk, just used the marked bays and lanes as guides. Started just making easy wide turns and then got tighter as I got used to the feel of the bike.
Took my time, and made sure I had room to go wide (stay away from the kerbs).
Most of my low speed riding is filtering through heavy traffic so don't use full lock manoeuvres much.
Bike instructor advised me to never make a u-turn on a bike. His reason - why bother? Too easy to fck it up and drop the bike. Do a three point or more turn instead.
Good luck with the practice, and hopefully you'll be one of those people I enviously watch full lock turning a race bike in a gravel car park like a boss.  |
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| Nick_Giles |
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 Nick_Giles Could Be A Chat Bot

Joined: 01 Jan 2012 Karma :   
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| The999Kid |
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 The999Kid World Chat Champion

Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Karma :  
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 Posted: 11:57 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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Thanks folks! keep the ideas coming  ____________________ NDB 19/10/1989 - 1/11/2010 |Nowhere.Elyseum wrote: I get the distinct feeling that Tim should be our secret weapon for future trolling. I don't know many people that can rip the piss in Iambic pentameter |
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| Efes123 |
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 Efes123 World Chat Champion

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| The999Kid |
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 The999Kid World Chat Champion

Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Karma :  
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 Posted: 12:29 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: Re: Full lock turns etc |
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| Efes123 wrote: |
Doesn't your normal road riding include slow riding/maneuvers? If they're not, then you won't be using them regularly enough to be of equal standard and confidence. It's only by doing something often that you become more proficient.
As above, I would recommend doing full-lock turns as part of normal riding practice, but could be useful in an emergency, so you should know you are able to do them.
But  in recognising that you need to improve in part of your riding. Most people tend to avoid something they're not so good at. |
The only slow riding my daily riding includes is walking pace riding around junctions and roundabouts... the riding im talking about improving is things like Uturns, and slow speed sharp changes of direction for example riding through pedestrianised areas going through gaps between outdoor seating, around bollards etc current road traffic laws prevent me from doing that in actual pedestrianised areas without the use of blue lights and sirens so im having to make do with cones and a car park... ____________________ NDB 19/10/1989 - 1/11/2010 |Nowhere.Elyseum wrote: I get the distinct feeling that Tim should be our secret weapon for future trolling. I don't know many people that can rip the piss in Iambic pentameter |
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| barrkel |
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 barrkel World Chat Champion
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 Karma :   
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 Posted: 12:31 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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With steering on full lock, half your control is taken away, and needs to be replaced with speed control. Normal steering instincts lead you wrong.
For example, with full left lock, more throttle will cause the bike to roll to the right, while very slight front brake will cause it to roll to the left. But it's very easy to overdo the brake, and drop the bike, so better to steer rather than brake to roll to the left.
When you start falling in to the centre of the turn, and you're at full lock, the thing you need is more throttle.
The rear brake is useful for keeping the whole transmission taut, removing the lash in fine throttle control.
When I'm on my scooter, I use full lock steering (combined with what Tef would call "counter-leaning") quite often to steer through (i.e. from one side to the other) queues of cars. I wear out rear pads faster than front pads on it. I don't do it as often on the much heavier (and top heavy) VFR, not least because it has a very big turning circle, and tends to pinch my gloved thumb between clipons and the tank at lock.
Close to full lock u-turns are also handy for side roads coming on to main roads that make it hard to turn right. You can turn left, then look for an opportunity to quickly turn around. It also gives you more confidence navigating the city, because you know missing a turnoff isn't a big deal. ____________________ Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ |
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| G |
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 G The Voice of Reason
Joined: 02 Feb 2002 Karma :     
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| thx1138 |
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 thx1138 World Chat Champion

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| kramdra |
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 kramdra World Chat Champion

Joined: 28 Oct 2010 Karma :     
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 Posted: 20:05 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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600's are often geared too high in first for doing slow manouvers without clutch but on a 125 its perfect. I can do them easily, except at full lock my brake MC rubs on fairing  |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :    
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 Posted: 20:35 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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Trundle up the A444, if you like, we can have a potter round Co-op or ASDA car-park... see where you are at, talk counter-leaning, that sort of stuff.
Slow speed, and awful lot of it is about using the throttle, and leaning the bike rather than turning the bars, and it feels counter-intuative... going slowly, you dont want to lean the bike becouse it feels like you cant hold it up, and opening the throttle to accelerate, to get the bike to generate g-force that will hold it up, feels all 'wrong'... but you can accelerate without going fast and use the force to hold the bike up while you lean it over to make it turn, so that you use less bar movement, and get less scrub, so the bike does turn rather than push the front... if that makes sense. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| radicalrabit |
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 radicalrabit Crazy Courier
Joined: 27 Dec 2012 Karma :  
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 Posted: 21:33 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Trundle up the A444, if you like, we can have a potter round Co-op or ASDA car-park... see where you are at, talk counter-leaning, that sort of stuff.
Slow speed, and awful lot of it is about using the throttle, and leaning the bike rather than turning the bars, and it feels counter-intuative... going slowly, you dont want to lean the bike becouse it feels like you cant hold it up, and opening the throttle to accelerate, to get the bike to generate g-force that will hold it up, feels all 'wrong'... but you can accelerate without going fast and use the force to hold the bike up while you lean it over to make it turn, so that you use less bar movement, and get less scrub, so the bike does turn rather than push the front... if that makes sense. |
spot on thats how I found things to happen but couldnt explain it like you did . I found that by leaning the bike it does u turns and circles far more easily And if you start to counter steer, turn the bike away from the direction you want to turn so it starts to fall in to the turn it goes round and putting power on helps ...I used to watch american cop training vids with their big bikes and then tried it out on mine ,,,,I had a break of 35 years from bikes and I really found all the additional training when I can back to it well worth it ,,,The R1200RT will turn Uturns and circles in at least three feet less than the Blackbird will, Weighting the pegs shifting your weight also helps . Round here you get lots of slow riding the traffic is a real pain but it comes as a surprise when you set off again and it dawns on you that you didnt have your feet on the floor and the bike was stopped even if only for a moment ,, its a weird feeling ____________________ VF1000 F2F, BLACKBIRD with carbs, 2nd VF1000F2F just need somewhere to go now.. |
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| Davie J |
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 Davie J Scooby Slapper
Joined: 03 Nov 2008 Karma :    
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 Posted: 21:50 - 06 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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Before my mod 1 I practised some manoeuvres in the Homebase carpark after the place closed.
The steel bollards at the end of the disabled bays are a perfect distance apart to slalom through. Big incentive not to hit any as well  ____________________ Kwak Z750R Black Edition
Marauder 125 K3 (Murdered by a Megane), Varadero 125 V7 (sold), Varadero Thou (Sold), CB500S (Sold). |
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| haroman666 |
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 haroman666 World Chat Champion

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| The999Kid |
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 The999Kid World Chat Champion

Joined: 11 Jan 2008 Karma :  
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 Posted: 01:22 - 07 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Trundle up the A444, if you like, we can have a potter round Co-op or ASDA car-park... see where you are at, talk counter-leaning, that sort of stuff.
Slow speed, and awful lot of it is about using the throttle, and leaning the bike rather than turning the bars, and it feels counter-intuative... going slowly, you dont want to lean the bike becouse it feels like you cant hold it up, and opening the throttle to accelerate, to get the bike to generate g-force that will hold it up, feels all 'wrong'... but you can accelerate without going fast and use the force to hold the bike up while you lean it over to make it turn, so that you use less bar movement, and get less scrub, so the bike does turn rather than push the front... if that makes sense. |
I will take you up on that in the not too distant future... Whereabouts are you? ____________________ NDB 19/10/1989 - 1/11/2010 |Nowhere.Elyseum wrote: I get the distinct feeling that Tim should be our secret weapon for future trolling. I don't know many people that can rip the piss in Iambic pentameter |
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| andym |
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 andym World Chat Champion

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| Howling TerrorOutOfOffice |
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 Howling TerrorOutOfOffice Super Spammer

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| trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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 trevor saxe-coburg-gotha World Chat Champion

Joined: 22 Nov 2012 Karma :   
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 Posted: 07:38 - 07 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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When it comes to slow manoeuvring it seems trailing the rear brake is one of those things where there's a marked lack of consensus amongst instructors. It's like ye fabled hendon shuffle (something I do 95% of the time, but don't really get why, because I don't actually buy the safety argument of it - and didn't it come out of norton commandos anyway, not to mention that a steep camber mitigates against it, as does a shorty riding a big beemer) - some insist on it, but increasingly many are almost insisting *against* it. Anyway - trailing the rear. Even though I've got virtually no experience, I've already encountered instructors who are stout advocates of it, and others who are very much agen it. Afaict, the former are old school - and probably also into the hendon dance as well. Me, personally, I want to be able to do the whole gamut - and practice both ways, i.e. clutching and trailing. ____________________ "Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent."
Mobylette Type 50 ---> Raleigh Grifter ---> Neval Minsk 125 |
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| barrkel |
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 barrkel World Chat Champion
Joined: 30 Jul 2012 Karma :   
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 Posted: 13:03 - 07 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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| trevor machine wrote: | When it comes to slow manoeuvring it seems trailing the rear brake is one of those things where there's a marked lack of consensus amongst instructors. It's like ye fabled hendon shuffle (something I do 95% of the time, but don't really get why, because I don't actually buy the safety argument of it |
You use the rear foot brake in slow control pretty much only to avoid lash in the drive chain. If you don't use the rear brake and you close the throttle to slow down, it won't have an immediate effect; the slack in the transmission (chain free play, cush rubbers etc.) will let the bike "freewheel" momentarily before engine braking kicks in. Then, when you open the throttle again, the slack will be taken up in the opposite direction, and power will come on as a jerk.
The rear hand lever brake on the scooter, well that's used more like a clutch to moderate power at low speeds. The centrifugal clutch automatically slips at low speeds, but you have more control over how much power it is delivering by using the rear to modulate it. ____________________ Bikes: S1000R, SH350; Exes: Vity 125, PS125, YBR125, ER6f, VFR800, Brutale 920, CB600F, SH300x4
Best road ever ridden: www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2MhNxUEYtQ |
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| ElBandido |
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 ElBandido Renault 5 Driver

Joined: 24 Mar 2013 Karma :   
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 Posted: 16:44 - 07 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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| trevor machine wrote: | When it comes to slow manoeuvring it seems trailing the rear brake is one of those things where there's a marked lack of consensus amongst instructors. It's like ye fabled hendon shuffle (something I do 95% of the time, but don't really get why, because I don't actually buy the safety argument of it - and didn't it come out of norton commandos anyway, not to mention that a steep camber mitigates against it, as does a shorty riding a big beemer) - some insist on it, but increasingly many are almost insisting *against* it. Anyway - trailing the rear. Even though I've got virtually no experience, I've already encountered instructors who are stout advocates of it, and others who are very much agen it. Afaict, the former are old school - and probably also into the hendon dance as well. Me, personally, I want to be able to do the whole gamut - and practice both ways, i.e. clutching and trailing. |
i agree with trevor machine. no harm in learning/knowing both.
personally, i prefer using clutch control to dragging the brake. ____________________ Bike: 2009 Bandit 650 | Licensed since: January 2012 | They stole my valve caps, the scum! |
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| Teflon-Mike |
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 Teflon-Mike tl;dr

Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :    
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 Posted: 18:31 - 07 Apr 2013 Post subject: |
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| The999Kid wrote: | I will take you up on that in the not too distant future... Whereabouts are you? |
Little bit of Warwickshire where they crossed out 'ear be Dra-agons' and inserted 'idiots'
Little town, founded around the Nunnery, where while the different coloured habbits of the Monks in Cov vied with each other and the Earn for the market-revinues..... the little old dears in wimple's collected unwanted village idiots..... until old Arry Ate, knocked on the door, and kicked them all out.... Nuns gone... unwanted village idiots were left behind...... Nuneaton came into being!
Snowie has a week off next week. I had presumed that I could steal the Pup to potter, while she was at work.... may still be able... but she has threatened she wants to 'clean' it... which from experience implies running around behind her bolting stuff back on it!
PM me and we'll see what slots we can match up. Working day, two main car-parks tend to be pretty full, ASDA and the Co-Op... but after 5pm Co-Ops pretty empty, while Sunday afternoon's and eves, you can weave a bike past the barrier into ASDA's 'over-spill' car-park'
| andym wrote: | I was told for my mod 1 use throttle as high as you want, don't bother about high rpm throttle, don't use a lot of clutch, only to control the throttle, keep your foot on the rear break to control the clutch/throttle. |
Slip & drag.... I HATE this practice for teaching newbs!
It is NOT the way to do stuff. It is PURELY to make a big-bike, go slower than the gearing will normally allow at tick-over, and its only real use IF for the fucking Mod 1 manouvers..... its 90% a test-trick!
Observed Trials or Moto-Gym-Khana... that is all about slow speed control, you do it CLEAN and you either dont go that slow so the bikes trying to get away fro you or you modify it by fitting lower fucking gearing so that it WILL go as slow as you want it to 'clutch-out' so you can ride it clean.
Its the motorcycle equivilent of similteniousely rubbing your tummy and patting your head, and about as fucking useful!
Trying to jiggle and balence three or four controls when one ought to be enough, fighting the bike trying to make it do something it is not designed to?!?!?!
Its NOT, an excersise in exemplary 'slow speed' control, its an example of control dexterity and being able to manage more than one thing at a time.....
And its horrible.
Yes, its useful, but as the primary way to teach some-one to go slow? Nope. It is NOT teaching them 'control'... its teaching them how to pass ONE element of the motorbike test... little elce.
And as the ONLY way to control a motorcycle at slow speed? Its apauling practice. Personally I will ONLY teach slip & drag AFTER some-one has learned to control a bike 'clean' riding it clutch out ALL on the throttle. Unfortunately, within time constraints of modern training, to get a rider 'up to speed', many instructors go straight to slip and drag, as though its the only way to go slow, and people dont even KNOW there is a any other way, or that riding it clean might, most of the time, be 'better'! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| barrkel |
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 barrkel World Chat Champion
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 191 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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