BHP and the law Quesiton.

[Le_Quack]

Hey,

OK this is gonna be a bit of an odd question but the 15BHP (11kw) law for CBT riders is that what the bike is spec'd to produce or what the bike actually produces.

I like older "classic" style bikes but some of these older bikes have BHP values of 16 and 17 on there official specifications, but at the same time I'm sure at least a couple of these old horses have escaped since the 70's and 80's. If I got the bike tested on a rolling road and it came out at under 15bhp would I be able to ride it?

Cheers

[DrSnoosnoo]

It depends what the engine capacities are. I think for a CBT holder 17 and older can only ride 124 cc engines. Some 125s are also over the limit so have to be restricted.

This means you can't have a 400cc restricted to the power level of the CBT.
____________________
I'm Sam; Northern, Ginger, Lover
Did have: '95 ZZR600 '83 CG125 '97 ZZR1100 '15 Hypermotard 821 SP Do Have: '10 ZX10R

[Le_Quack]

[arry]

short answer is yes, legally if it did not exceed 125cc and had less than 11kw it would be legal to ride it. The 'law' states it must have a 'power rating' not exceeding 11kw and defines 'power rating' as engine power output - it does not define when that power output is tested.

Long answer is whilst most probably you could do that the chances of a copper challenging the claimed power output and demanding an inspection because the factory specification bike, when new, had more power than that, would likely be very much increased than if you were riding a GS125, for example.

There's also the distinct possibility that the rollers you used under-read and the ones the ol' bill use over-read.....

[Le_Quack]

[Rogerborg]

The latest UK legislation is The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) Regulations 2012 which amend The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999.

The relevant part is this:

(e) for the definition of “maximum net power output” substitute—““maximum net power output”, in relation to an engine, means the maximum net power output measured under full engine load”;

Clear enough? No? Can't you read their minds and figure out how they expect this to be tested?

The answer is that there's no definitive answer. I'm not aware of any case law that's tested this. A dyno will only ever give an estimate of the engine's power, maximum, net, or otherwise.

As to your insurer, that's entirely up to them. There's no such thing as a "certificate" and anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to sell you one.

If push comes to shove, just print off any old bit of paper that says "Bike is 11kW, honest". Round here, we call those PaddyCerts^tm.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[MC]

[arry]

[dydey90]

I'd be willing to risk it. Unless it's more of the more reputable two-strokes like an Honda NSR, Aprillia RS or Cagiva Mito, it's not likely to be a problem.

You'll find out with a phone call, I daresay they'll have a list of 125's they need a restriction for.
____________________
This post is probably not serious and shouldn't be taken literally.
Past: CBR125,ER6f NINJA 650, ZZR600 Current: VFR750

[Clutchy]

You'll be fine
____________________
Malaguti F12 Phantom-Dead, Suzuki AY50- Dead, NRG power DD LQ, CBR125.
*33 BHP restriction up on 10/12/14* Current bikes/car: SV 650 S/ MKIV GOLF
Guide to pass your test with no lessons!

[MC]

[Rogerborg]

They can try, in principle. As arry has pointed out though, the amount they'd expect to recover from Joe Hookycover is probably less than their legal fees.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Teflon-Mike]

If the manufacturers declared specification says more than 11Kw 14.#bhp... its not learner legal... until proven otherwise.
As holder of licence that restricts you to machines less than stated power, its your responsibility to ensure vehicle you ride is within eligibility of your licence.... how you do that up to you...

"Well, its twenty years old... CANT make as much power as the book says by now" is not an assurance.... its a guess... and a bad one.

In fact... its telling the authorities that you are riding a 'defective' motorcycle... and they dont like that idea too much either!

And what we looking at? 17bhp? Thats the rating on an old CB125Twin... maybe the last air-cooled RD125 Twin.

Later, post 1982 water-cooled twostrokes; RD's, DT's, AR's KMX etc... were all 'as standard' restricted to the then learner legal limit of 13.5bhp... probably 'tuned' to make more, but again... your responsibility to ensure bikes within licence entitlement... knowingly riding bike originally learner legal, modded to not be, as bad as riding one never learner legal to begin with... in some cases worse, legally.

Anyway... 17bhp, -> 14.5.. 2.5bhp over 17 is 15%... that's a pretty big 'loss' to hope for from 'wear and tear'... possible, likely even... but, knackered spark-plug and mal-adjusted carb or fucked cylinder bore isn't a recognised 'modification'.

So HOW have you assured that your 'well maintained' motorcycle, is within the entitlement of your licence?

Dyno-Print-out? Well, its not an excuse, and its something to show you have taken some reasonable precaution to ensure you are riding in accordance, but, they are notoriousely innacurate, and tend to show rear wheel bhp, not 'standardised' crank-shaft power, legislation is framed round; and like an MOT, only good they day they are printed... if that!

And what's it showing? Power the bike might have made on that run... what have you DONE to the bike to change its spec from that declared by maker? What is that test result proving? That you are riding clapped out wreck? Or that the 'throttle-stop' inlet restrictor, ignition retarder, whatever, 'change' you have made (and declared to insurer!) has succeeded in revising bikes spec from that declared by maker, to something that meets licence entitlement.

End of the day, its your call, if you choose to ride something, that as declared by maker, or modified by owner, is outside terms of your licence entitlement, what you do or not, as precaution against possibility of prosecution for riding other than in accordance.

Bottom line is.... you get stopped, what answers you have, what bits of paper you may have mean shit. Its what the bike is at the side of the road, and plods job, to gain admission you are knowingly riding other than in accordance, or prove it.

Having 'smart answers' like... "Well, its an old bike, cant make more than 15bhp can it" is leader into debate they are experts at using to get admission they can prosecute you with... even if it isn't riding other than in accordance....

"You have the right to remain silent" (even before they tell you that!)... "Anything you fail to say when questioned may harm your defence"

So... who are you, where do you live, you tell them as they can detain until they are satisfied of your identity. This your bike... you tell them as they can easily check... is it insured, all that crap, dont try being a smart arse, just let them check the boxes.

Chances are, if it says 125 on the side, and you have two, legal sized, properly displayed L-Plates and a full set of lamp lenses... they wont go much further than giving you a shake down and telling you you is a learner, so stop pratting about, going to fast, watch where you are going, get some propper boots, or whatever they want to do to big it over you.

If they have more cause to pull you over; dodgy lights, riding like an idiot, sparks coming from a center stand dragging on the floor from a knackered retension spring or whatever.... they will issue caution of notice of intended for that.... not some potentially hard to prove and arguable question of power limits....

Unless you are speeding, seriousely, and it looks likely, and they think they can get a quick biggie from you by implied admission, or easily refuted lie....

THAT is when you might want a verified 'Paddy Cert' or something that shows you have taken some 'reasonable' precautions to ensure bike is within licence entitlement..... but again, only ever going to stop them progressing that line of enquirey, and more 'disputable' your answer... more likley they are to dispute it... to point THEY put the thing on a Dyno... and THAT is what will be used in court, not some bit of paper that may show your bike was within learner legal limits, at some point in history....

IF the matter is persued, and bike, as it stands at the side of the road, when they stop you, ENT within licence entitlement... its a huge can of worms, and you IS guilty... all paperwork might do is reduce penalty IF you can show you have taken 'reasonable measures' to be within the law. If court deems measures you have taken 'reasonable' might get it dismissed entirely... though court costs, you can no longer re-claim, I believe for a motoring offence, likely to be more than paying fine and taking ban 'ex-party' pleading guilty by post; But it will only get to court IF you have made admission of guilt in what you tell plod at the side of the road... even if you dont believe thats what you told them... remember, thats what they do... quickest way to get a collar, talk you into shafing yourself.... or they have hard 'proof' bike ent legal, having got thier own Dyno reading, and you is guilty of riding other than in accordance; and court will not be on your side, wasting thier time, wanting to defend a clear cut case, because you didn't THINK you were breaking the law, and just want to plead down the penalty.

So, precautions you take are up to you... manage the risks. And as a hint... much bigger bludy risks of getting procecuted than for 'other than in accordance'.

As hint; make sure bike is well serviced; center stands aren't hung up with bailer twine; exhausts held on with coat-hanger wire; exhaust isn't screaming 'stop-me' by making thier ears belled into thier coffee and donuts; make sure all lights work all the time, and have propper lenses over them; carry a spare bulb.....

FIRST QUESTION copper pulling you at side of road will ever ask....

"Know why I have stopped you"

Correct Answer.... "No officer, what is the problem?"

Like I said, they are very good at getting you to admit your own guilt....

"Err. Was I going a bit fast?" XXX wrong answer! "Oh So you admit to speeding then do you sonny?" BANG gets written up "Upon stopping the rider, he admitted he was riding above posted speed limit"... not quite what you said, BUT, whose word would a court take when it comes to a he-said-I-said-He said debate in the dock?

So... "No officer, what seems to be the problem?" Let THEM tell you thier reason for detaining you in your journey.... they have to have a reason, no such thing as a 'routine stop', they have no more power to stop you than any other private individual; still on the statutes, its actually an offence to interfere with persons going about thier lawful business on the Queens Highway... how they hung highwaymen back in the Dick-Turpin days, as waving a gun around wasn't actually a hanging offence, and stealing only lead to deportation to Oz! So let them state thier reason... play DUM is you have to... cos they have to have a reason, even if its pretty disputeable as a justifiable cause under terms of thier Warrant.

They will deal with the 'obviouse first'... and lights and tax disc and shit is the obviouse.

One of my old bikes was notoriouse for blowing tail-lamp bulbs; but was forever getting stopped for a dodgy brake light.... When copper stopped playing his "Well lets see what he'll fess up to" game.. and they got to it... "Oh! Tail lamp? Well it was working when I left, officer... I checked it, let me have a look" Turned out on at least three occassions to be simply that they had seen me 'brake' but lamp hadn't come on.... mainly cos I didn't use back brake, and wasn't a requirement to have stop lamp switch on front brake lever on bike that old.... stomp on brake pedal "Well it seems to be working now officer" If it didn't come on; "Terribly sorry officer, let me change it... I have a spare under the seat, thank you for telling me!" And interview pretty much ends there.

And plenty of other 'obviouse' on the face of it things they are going to look for long before they get down to what power your bike makes. Deal with that first. Make sire bike is taxed, properly insured, and in good as you would present it for MOT road-worthy state; dont ride like a dick, make sure you have propper full size L-Plates front and back; you are not likely to get a tugg in the first place; if you do; then many things they will look at ahead of power declarations; and if they get to that.... then more chance you will put yourself in the shit with daft answers than there is they will actually get the bike lifted and tested. "Well its old innit" will get them on the case. An verified Paddy Cert, that they have cause to start probing, more, an XL graph that might be a dyno-Print... all oportunity for them to dig deeper, and prove you in the lie...

Answer is, its been restricted. you have done 'something' tio change spec from manufacturers declared spec. Off teh shelf 'kit' even without 'cirtificate of fitment, may shut them up. Pointing to carb spacer you have changed, might be enough. Its about giving them some 'confidence' you have done something that makes it less worth thier while persuing it... and a fake paper-trail ent that.

Make it a real one... do something tangible, you can show them, and make sure it works, or dont bother, and tell them its up to them to prove is over the limit, and be ready to take the arse rape if they do, and it is.

Or buy bike that has 11Kw or less on the makers plate on the head-stock.

And STILL make sure you have full size L-Plates properly displayed front and back; lamps, lenses, spare bulb and lack of gaffer tape, coat-hanger wire and riding exhuberance likely to get them to pull you in the first place.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[bikertomm]

Let me guess, you scrolled right down to see this?

Good.
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07' Honda Hornet now full powaah! My guide on performing an oil change!

[MC]

[Kickstart]

Hi

Not sure how accurate the power claims were back then anyway. The old learner limit (which resulted in 125s being restricted for learners) was 9kW (12.2hp).

The limit applies to the power of the bike you are riding. Claimed is irrelevant, although a higher claim might well be cause to investigate further.

The limit is meant to be measured at the crank, and virtually no chance that can be measured accurately with the engine in the bike. They can make a guess based on the drag when slowing down, but for that to be vaguely accurate assumes you don't care about the friction in the primary drive, and also that the drag from the chain and sprockets is equal in both directions which is unlikely on a worn set of sprockets.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Kickstart]

[arry]

Is this a rant about insurers not asking for docs now? There was me thinking the usual rant is that they want a copy of stuff

Operational efficiency may have something to do with it - you earn 8 quid out of every 100 taken in - if you're extremely lucky - not particularly cost efficient chasing for a licence on a high in force policy count

[Tamsin]

Also, within the t&cs of most insurance policies it states that they will pay out in those situations but then persue you for the sums involved

[arry]