Exhaust + Air Filter + Power Commander = ?+BHP

[Jambon]

I'm going to be fitting a full flow silencer, K&N air filter then get the bike on a dyno to set up the power commander... Is there even a ball park figure for what to expect in terms of power gains? The bike is a 2003 ZX6RR and it's claimed to have 112BHP out of the box.

Thanks in advance
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Honda XR 125L / Kawasaki ZXR400 / Kawasaki ZX-6RR / Aprilia RSV 1000R Factory

[hmmmnz]

my money is once its been on the dyno you'll get 111hp
dont believe manufacturers hp numbers they are quite often crank numbers,
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[Teflon-Mike]

Power is made in the engine, not outside it.

Engine is very carefully developed by the factory to perform as it does, and if there was any quick and easy way to get more power out of the engine, they would have done it; especially on a bike that sells on performance.

Bolt-on tuning then tends to do little but shift compromises around a bit.

Filters might find a tiny little more free-flow capability at 'peak' power, but more likely stocker already has more than engine needs; and a K&N IF you get any gain will simply be from nice clean new filter providing full flow, were one it replaced was probably clogged with crap and needed replacing anyway. If there's any benefit to a K&N and there are very few bikes there is any real benefit; its in thier half life, and how long they take to clog to half flow capacity... and even that... is something of an enigma... they often clog slower by simply letting more fine particulates through the mesh.. ie not filtering as much!

Full-Flow silencer... err, shall we call that a straight through end can? Well, it'll make the bike louder, that's for sure. Potential for flowing more exhaust and getting better scavenging, that might help you find power gains though is limited; that is in the header design and the resonance tuning of them... WHICH adding a baffle-less end can can totaly screw up.

Power-Commander. Well, fuel injection, just like a carburettor, does no more than mix fuel and air in the right ratio to make a bang. You can bung as much fuel in as you like, and on an old carbed engine, dead easy, stick the choke on... wont make a bigger bang.. you just get more black smoke and crap mpg!

Power-commander is modern equivilent of a chap with a bit plastic compartment box of jets, that lets you change the mixture strength... rather a lot of complicated technology actually to do what once upon a time was done with a bit of brass with a hole in it, but still.

Having fucked up the efficiency of your exhaust with the loud end can, and maybe got the motor running a tad weak from a thinner filter, the power commander can then be used to easily let a Dyno Jock, 'correct' the carburation to keep the mixture right accross the rev range.

Manufacturers can be a bit naughty when they put thier fuel map in, and put in lean spots, to get the engine through emmission or noise regs, so the power commander, might be able to iron them out and help find a little mid-0range power, effectively for 'free' and it might help tweek things a bit to get better throttle response.

Other than that? Well, i recall a study a few years back that looked at after-market exhausts, and conclusion was that the very best designed full systems, on an other wise standard road engine, struggled to help an engine gain more than 5%... so the BEST you are likely to get is about 5.5bhp more... at 'peak' revs.

IF the engine is a good'n to start with and got all its factory claimed ponies still... it is a decade old after all.

First rule of tuning. before looking for more than standard, make sure you have what you should AS standard.

If your engine's on its last legs with slappy pistons and clattery cam chain, all you will get is an even noisier sloppy clattery engine, that'll get sloppier and clatterier quicker!

But, assume its a good'n; and 5% for a full system.... you will be lucky to see much at all for just an end can. Like I said, good chance that screwing the harmonics you could actually LOOSE power.

But, depends.... its all swings and roundabouts; 'peak' power is only one number; the max power the engine might make under load, wide open throttle at peak power rpm.

You could loose 5bhp off that peak, and not notice it, cos you rarely use it. But if you gained say, 2bhp over all the crank-speeds the engine is regularly used... could actually make the bike faster round a track, having more 'available' power to actually put to the road more of the time.

Liklihood though, is you will gain perhaps 1-2bhp more at peak revs. AND you will see a 'loss' of perhaps 3-4bhp in the mid-range and at the bottom of the power ramp.

That loss of mid-range is likely to actually make the bike 'slower' in limiting useable power, in how much it can put down and for how long... but pulling the base of the power ramp down, and the peak up a tad, the gradient will be steeper, and the increase in power with rpm, how much more thrust gets delivered from the rate of change of power, will make it FEEL like its pulling harder and SO much more powerful than it actually is...

Greatest 'performance' advantage of an after-market end can? Mainly saving a little weight, rather than improving engine efficiency.

So... what's your objective?

Cos, old bit of pit-lane-lore; want a faster bike? Fit a better rider.

And modding YOU, making you a better rider, is a wonderful mod. You dont have to declare it to an insurer; wont put your premiums up. Doesn't wreck reliability or ruin fuel ecconomy; if anything a better rider, with some sort of advanced riding qualification is likely to get premiums down, and riding more efficiently, get better mpg, wear out less service spares, not break down or crash, and so save SO much money... AND go faster while doing it.

Best of all, better rider works on any bike; not just this one, dont wear out, and only gets better with use.

My advice? If you want to get 'more' from your bike than it has now;
1/ service it properly, make sure it can give all it can.
2/ make sure you have good tyres, good brakes and good suspension. These will let you get far more from standard power than any gains you might chance upon with loud pipe and jst kit.
3/ make yourself a better rider; get the most from what the bike has to offer.

Its a very quick and very capable bike, and on a public road, how much of what it has as stock you can use is limited not by its fueling or exhaust or its suspension, but by how much 'risk' the rider is prepared to take.

That bike, round a track, ridden to the edge by experts taking it to the limit; mods you suggest would at best find tenths of a second a lap; worst loose them seconds a lap... at maybe a lap a minute....

Real world, real road, that difference is riding the thing to the ragged edge, to get to a give way, three seconds ahead of some-one else, who guesses the gap better to get out in front of you.

A suggestion I no doubt expect you will bluster on; BUT remains my advice. Leave it stock.

And if you want to go faster, look at where the biggest gains are to be found.

So back to the top, and power is made in the engine not outside.

Biggest areas to find gains ent likely to be in the engine, or even the bike, so it sure as heck isn't going to be in an empty pipe and a little black box.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
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[bamt]

I know cars aren't bikes, but there was a car show on telly a few years ago where through the series they started with a stock Vauxhall Astra on a drag strip, and each week they fitted it with something from the Max Power boy's toys catalogue. Air filters, exhausts, aerodynamic mods etc.

Pretty much the only thing they did that made a real difference was to empty the boot (no spare tyre or junk) and strip out the interior of things like excess seats to reduce weight.

Other mods were typically as effective as when they put a stripe over the top of the car to make it feel faster for the psychological effect on their driving.

[1198]

[0l0dom0l0]

Don't listen to the above. I read one paragraph and couldn't be bothered.

You'll probably get around a 10% gain with the mods you propose.

With regards to want more power buy a bigger bike, there's nothing like riding a bike with a proper exhaust system and a custom map. World's above a standard bike of any cc. Smooth predictable power.
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CBT Passed: 30/08/2009, Theory Passed: 31/08/2010, Mod 1 Passed: 6/9/2010, Mod 2 Passed: 13/09/2010. Restriction ended 13/09/2012.

Bikes: 2007 Derbi GPR 50, 1998 Yamaha Fazer 600 (written off), 2002 Yamaha Fazer 600, 1994 CBR 600F, 2003 Triumph Daytona 600, Kawasaki ZX6R J1.....Current: 2006 Yamaha FZ6, 1998 Suzuki TL1000R and a Honda VFR 400 NC30.

[el_oso]

The thing that made me a much quicker rider is riding a bigger bike.
I've had a revvy 600 for 4 years now and in the last year I've come on leaps and bound. Most of this is down to confidence and a much improved knowledge of what I should be doing. On a 1000cc superbike it was effortless to get to ridiculous speeds. On my 600 I need to concentrate a lot more on what the bike is doing. For that reason to achieve the same level of speed I have to concenrate of what gear I should be in, my road positioning, where I'm going to brake etc. That has made me a faster, more confident and safer rider I believe.

In terms of the upgrades, I don't think they are going to make that much of a performance increase, but they will still probably put a smile on your face just knowing/hearing that they are there.
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Duke 390
Previous: '05 XR125L | '96 XJ600S Diversion |'05 Suzuki GSXR1000 | '05 Honda CBR125-R | '97 YZF 600R Thundercat | '11 Honda CBR250
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[Robby]

What do you want from it? Think about this, and then talk to the person setting up the map for the power commander.

The peak power figure is fairly meaningless - that only matters when you're flat out at the top of the rev range, which is a rare thing. What you can do with a power commander is smooth out the power curve and boost the midrange, which makes a difference riding on the road.

[chris-red]

Buying a PC for more power is pointless. £300 for 5bhp tops.

Buy a PC to smooth out the power and go for midrange gains. After lots of Tweaking both my bikes now pull smoothly from 2k RPM.

You aren't Rossi, haven't a few more bhp at the top of the rev range isn;t important.
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[chris-red]

[_Iain_]

Make turbo.
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[Fisty]

[stevo as b4]

Sorry but in this thread Tef's one size fits all approach is pretty inaccurate IMO!

It reminds me of a bloke at work who heard me talking about my car, and tuning, and every time I spoke to him he kept on talking about how a full Janspeed exhaust system and manifold will give you 15% more power and 10-15% more economy. He was talking about his sole vast engine tuning experience with a 1.8 Carb fed Ford Sierra!

I can't offer the OP any figures for his bike, but back at the NEC show in 2005, I was shown a dyno chart by PDQ who were the u.k Dynojet kit importer at the time, and on a ZX6R J1-J2 like mine a decent race can, K&N drop in the box filter, and a properly set up DJ kit with dyno time, showed +4bhp from 8000-12000rpm and at best exactly the same as std everywhere else.

It's nice to speak to an Honest tuner though, who can back up questions with results, and experience and had a graph of proof to show me.

[Jambon]

Thanks everyone for all the thoughts and opinions. To be fair I probably asked a question where there isn't a straight figure answer. It seems some people are in complete contrast with their opinion, which maybe this isn't to be expected as this is the internet, but if I mention what I would like from my bike this could help...

I've now done my first track day and it was bloody marvelous and really satisfying to get my knee down and just trust how much you can lean the bike (with good conditions of course). I'd like to return to the track making a few considered mods which make the bike perform better. I'm not really looking to shave tenths of seconds, but just want to have the bike set up correctly.

I'm not too bothered about adding a couple of HP, but just want a bike that sounds nicer that stock and is running as efficiently as possible. would I need to even play with the bikes ECU after just fitting a straight through end can?
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Honda XR 125L / Kawasaki ZXR400 / Kawasaki ZX-6RR / Aprilia RSV 1000R Factory

[hmmmnz]

generally putting a can on makes a bike run a little leaner,
you can get away with it sometimes, but some times because of the already stock lean spots for emmissions, it causes quite bad flat spots,
for sure do the exhaust, but get the power commander and get it tuned for a nice smooth torque curve,
dont worry about horsepower, smoother the bike the faster you'll be
____________________
the humans are dead
I kick arse for the lord
Wiring Diagrams BIDNIP it bitches

[Jambon]

Ah great that makes sense.

If I'm going to the trouble of fitting a straight through end can, buying a power commander and paying for somebodies time on the dyno, would it not make sense to get a K&N air filter then for another £40?
____________________
Honda XR 125L / Kawasaki ZXR400 / Kawasaki ZX-6RR / Aprilia RSV 1000R Factory

[0l0dom0l0]

[YBR Ric]

From the flow graphs I've seen, a DNA filter has better flow than its K&N equivalent

[lihp]

[stu_m]

[Fisty]

[stu_m]

116 from an R??

my lower powered S was putting out 114 with nothing done!!

maybe your mods before the custom map killed the power and setting the fuelling back right and even better than stock gave you all that power back plus a little extra!

I would expect to see around 125 from an R with 130 from a well set up one but I wouldn't expect to see 116 from an R I would expect more in stock form

who is doing the 1100 motor? or is it a custom jobbie

[Fisty]