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faster_than_the_bus
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notbike
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 Posted: 02:04 - 23 Aug 2014  Post subject: |
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Get your speed right before you enter the corner, gear & braking done before the bend starts and then roll on the throttle through the corner. Don't ride outside of your comfort level. I tried taking every corner faster than I needed to when I was super fascinated with cornering and ended up scaring myself so I quit being a tit and started enjoying a more comfortable (and sensible) riding style.
Having said that, I was just practicing wheelies on the way home (still very very terrible at these)  |
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Pete.
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defblade
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| Posted: 07:10 - 23 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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You can, of course, brake in a corner without killing yourself or kittens.
The bike is going to try and sit more upright if you do, so you need to be ready to counter that with body position and more effort through the bars. As mentioned, back brake is much safer for this than front.
The other problem is, your tyre can only do so much, so if you're asking it to slow the bike, there's less capability left for gripping the road against cornering forces, hence more likely for the bike to go over. Sounds like you're well within the tyres, but do remember bumps, gravel, etc
Much better to get your speed off before the corner, as everyone says. Even racers say "slow in, fast out" 
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hachi8
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faster_than_the_bus
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Dave70
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 14:44 - 24 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| faster_than_the_bus wrote: | Makes it kind of hard to reduce the speed before corners. |
Correction; makes it harder to scrub of speed SUDDENLY before corners... as you shouldn't be trying to scrub off speed suddenly, this could actually be saving your arse! Remember, early CG's had drum brakes....
Ergo, problem isn't your bike but you, leaving your braking too late... or relying on 'panic reactions' to ride on the seat of your pants, rather than predictively... and as you said, you probably don't need to brake any way... you just aren't brave enough.
So... if you aren't brave enough to go that fast round the corner... don't go that fast before the corner... SLOW DOWN... everywhere!
Try the 'no brakes game'. Ride a road on the throttle, alone, don't get the bike up to such speed on the straights, roll off early for corners to arrive at them at a speed you know or are comfy to go round at, well in advance, aim for a slow average speed, rather than a high max speed on the straight... then build it up, so that you are holding higher average speeds riding the same way, without hammering the brakes to squid the corners.
To take this slightly off on a tangent;
Your panic reaction to hit the brakes, is what Code calls 'Survival Instincts' or 'Natural Inhibitors'... prompting the advice "Be Brave - Ride through your Fear - resist the instinct"... and 9 times out of 10, it works, because the bike would make it round at that speed, where mid-corner panic braking is likely to unsettle the brake and either see you lock up and come off, or sit up and run wide into the verge.... and in his fuller texts he some-times makes that clarification, though unfortunately he uses repetition even more than I do, so often the 'Ride past your fears' message is all that comes through, and passed on. Which is rather dangerouse... cos at some point, you are at the ragged edge and the bike wont make it round at that speed...
I prefer to advice people to heed their fears; you are afraid for a reason, normally because something is scary, and its scary 'cos it's dangerous and you could get hurt.... so heed the warning, dont dismiss it out of hand; UNDERSTAND... consider, contemplate and work out whay it feels scary and just how dangerouse it really is... a lot of the time, our biggest fears are of the unknown, or unfamiliar, so our fear responses kick in disproportionately, perceiving a much bigger danger than what's triggering our fear. Know the danger, its a lot less scary, BUT you recognise its still there, and can better put reactions in proportion to the trigger... provided you dont let familiarity breed contempt.
It's fair-ground-ride trickery... you know when you step on a roller coaster, that you aren't going to get hurt... chucked about a bit, but the things are designed to meet stringent safety standards, trucks seldom come flying off tracks, brakes rarely fail, and the worst that tends to happen is a car gets stuck at the top of the track... YET half the folk on the ride are screaming like banchees, going green round the gills and spewing thier burgers and slushees over the folk in the queue beneath.... the 'Thrill' is in the belief its scary, and dangerouse and all very dramatic... not the 'reality'
Same on a bike... easy to ramp your anxiety levels, and let fears breed fears, and never really get fear responses in proportion to the actual danger.... BUT... panic reactions, sudden hard braking, rapid acceleration, hard cornering, chucking the bike around with lots of drama... all a lot of hard work for starters... so feels like you are really having to wrestle the thing to keep it in check... but at the same time, ramps the sensation and drama of the ride, like a roller-coaster, amplifying the energy levels... which confirms that it must be dangerouse, 'cos you are always 'so close' to loosing it.... AND confirms to so many that they are a1 peerless gods of motorcycle management... cos they 'tames the beast' not falling off...
Reality, however, is more often, that the drama and sensation is all self made.... working so hard, you create the forces that make it hard work, and generate the sensations of speed and danger; making you work it even harder... AND, loading everything up with gross force reactions, actually making the danger, 'cos bottom line is the finite grip that tyre has on tarmac... and gross control input makes forces that use that up, putting you 'on the ragged egde' or over it.....
Smooth, is Swift, is Safe and Saves.
Kill the drama; get your head in a more rational place; don't succum to the red mist or ride on the seat of your pants;
SLOW DOWN - GO SAFER - GO FASTER, SAFER!
Slow down... aim for smooth, damp the tendancy for hard braking and hard acceleration; go 'slower' so you have more time to plan ahead, and arrive at a corner at the speed you are going to go round it, least brakes, no brakes, and you will go round with a higher corner speed, coming out with a higher exit speed, you will need less acceleration to get back to straight line road-speed... hence you will go 'faster'... but in teh doing of, using less braking, using less acceleration, using less sudden steering, or steering correction, making bends 'longer' you will generate less forces, and spread them out more, which will give your tyres and suspension and everything else an easier time, and leave you a bigger margin for safety... with small advantage you will also use less fuel, and put less wear and tear on the bike, meaning less expensive maintenance, less chance of a breakdown and necessary repairs, and much less chance of an 'off' where bits can easily get expensively bent.
Smooth is Swift is Save and Saves.
And you can get there by inverting Code Lore; dont ignore your 'Natural Inhibitors' heed them; understand them, respect your fears... SLOW DOWN... and build back up, working for SMOOTH not SPEED... and speed will come, with safety.
Buying better brakes? Well, bike possibly ought to have them... but not really the 'fix' here. Just pandering to the reflex, and ramping the drama... ramping the forces, helping you push the thing even closer to the ragged edge, use even more tyre grip, to go even SLOWER.
Want a faster bike? Fit a better Rider.
Work on your technique, NOT your technology... technology only works on one bike its fitted to... better rider works on any and every bike... and it doesn't push up insurance premiums, declaring the mod, can actually lower them if you get a qualification for it; cant get stolen, or lost, and wont wear out or loose value with age, and it only gets better with use....
Work on smooth... try going slower to get better and faster.
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Pete.
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Slacker24seve...
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Commuter_Tim
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| Posted: 16:31 - 24 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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I often brake into corners (generally through poor forethought) more so with the rear than the front, but never found much problem in doing so.
In all seriousness, I have always wondered if this is purely down to CG drums being so shit, that its hard to bin it?
I imagine it will be one of many rude awakenings once I eventually graduate to a big boy bike. 
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| Posted: 18:37 - 24 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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You have to be more careful, cos of the extra weight and better brakes, but that's it.
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Val
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faster_than_the_bus
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| Posted: 23:35 - 26 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| Pete. wrote: | | faster_than_the_bus wrote: |
My bike has an under sized front brake from a foreign bike, will be converting it back to UK spec as soon as I can afford to. Makes it kind of hard to reduce the speed before corners.
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What a load of old tosh. Adapt your riding to the bike's (and your) capabilities. |
Half true. Going into corners too fast, my own fault, fair enough. But one day some cager is going to pull out in front of me. I try to allow for this, but would prefer to have the brake the machine is supposed to be fitted with.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Remember, early CG's had drum brakes.... |
As does mine. Under-sized drums from a foreign bike that I suspect work badly even for such piddly little drums.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: |
So... if you aren't brave enough to go that fast round the corner... don't go that fast before the corner... SLOW DOWN... everywhere!
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I already ride pretty slow, the problem is that I am not yet sure how to correctly judge how sharp a corner is going to be. I always try to arrive at a suitable speed, but sometimes get it wrong.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | Your panic reaction to hit the brakes, is what Code calls |
What Code?
| Teflon-Mike wrote: | ... Tangent riding technique/ psychology. |
Yup, agree with most of this, but sometimes I make mistakes. Beter to learn from them than deny them.
| Teflon-Mike wrote: |
Buying better brakes? Well, bike possibly ought to have them... but not really the 'fix' here.
.. it doesn't push up insurance premiums, |
I do not want to upgrade the brakes, I want to undo the downgrade the previous owner performed. For emergency use as much as general riding.
| Slacker24seven wrote: |
Back to the OP, planning ahead, slow in fast out and all that is very important.
However in the real 'oh shit I've overcooked this' situations, try to remember your bike is more capable than you are. In dry conditions it will carry a bigger lean angle and more corner speed than you think it can. This even goes for a CG, assuming its in good condition. |
Yes, I have found that to be the case. Never had even a hint of a slide in the dry. The bike is old but well looked after. Other than the front drum, a slightly slippy clutch, and a very minor oil leak (hairline crack in crankcase from previous owner) the only problems I am aware of are purely cosmetic.
| Commuter_Tim wrote: |
In all seriousness, I have always wondered if this is purely down to CG drums being so shit, that its hard to bin it? |
I think it's because a CG is so light, and even when proper hammering it you are still going very slow compared to normal sized bikes. I hated my CG when I first got it, but now have a sort of grudging respect for it, as it is forcing me to be a better rider than I would have been on the bike I wanted but couldn't afford.
| valko wrote: |
Not sure about Internet wisdom who says you should not slow down in corners?? |
I can't say exactly, but the opinion of big bike guys reviewing small bikes is that you can chuck them round corners at silly fast speeds.
| valko wrote: |
Actually you are doing it exactly as it should be - this is called trail braking when you use your brakes and slow down all the way to the apex, |
Yep, have read about trail braking and when I have overcooked it that is exactly what (I try) to do. Some guys say that is correct, but when I am just learning it seems a bit dodgy.
| valko wrote: |
Having said all that I really think you cannot learn all this on a public road - do practice on a track mate ] |
Heh, I would love to. If I had the cash for track days, do you really think I would be riding a CG?
Also, still after a new front wheel and brake if anybody has one for less than ebay price. |
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| barrkel |
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barrkel
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Posted: 00:16 - 27 Aug 2014  Post subject: |
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| faster_than_the_bus wrote: | I already ride pretty slow, the problem is that I am not yet sure how to correctly judge how sharp a corner is going to be. I always try to arrive at a suitable speed, but sometimes get it wrong. |
Vanishing point; position on the outside of the bend so you can see more clearly whether it's moving away from you or staying put. That's 90% of what you need to know and practice. The other 10% is mostly looking further ahead, i.e. hedges, treelines, utility poles, etc.
| Quote: | | Teflon-Mike wrote: | Your panic reaction to hit the brakes, is what Code calls |
What Code? |
Keith Code. Twist of the Wrist - search online, watch the second movie, read the book if you want more detail.
| Quote: | Yep, have read about trail braking and when I have overcooked it that is exactly what (I try) to do. Some guys say that is correct, but when I am just learning it seems a bit dodgy. |
Big bikes have wider tyres than small bikes. Wider front tyres means braking on the front while leaned over has more of a torque reaction on the steering - front braking will cause the steering to steer into the turn, causing the bike to steer upright through a countersteer effect (see Keith Code again). This in turn means steering wider than you intended, since the bike goes upright.
That's why it's a bad habit, and in particular why it's an insidious habit to pick up on a small bike - it won't really bite you until you try it on a big bike, and you may be in a panic then.
Braking with the rear is safer, but I prefer to brake in corners using engine braking. Much less risk of losing traction, especially when descending hills around tight corners, where there's already less weight on the rear.
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| daemonoid |
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daemonoid
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| Taught2BCauti... |
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Taught2BCauti...
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| Posted: 09:55 - 27 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| trevor saxe-coburg-gotha |
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trevor saxe-coburg-gotha
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| Val |
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Val
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| Posted: 16:55 - 27 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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| barrkel wrote: |
Big bikes have wider tyres than small bikes. Wider front tyres means braking on the front while leaned over has more of a torque reaction on the steering - front braking will cause the steering to steer into the turn, causing the bike to steer upright through a countersteer effect (see Keith Code again). This in turn means steering wider than you intended, since the bike goes upright.
That's why it's a bad habit, and in particular why it's an insidious habit to pick up on a small bike - it won't really bite you until you try it on a big bike, and you may be in a panic then. |
what a nonsense - you are saying to him not to try to learn trail braking because it will be harder to learn it later on a big bike?
| barrkel wrote: |
Braking with the rear is safer, but I prefer to brake in corners using engine braking. Much less risk of losing traction, especially when descending hills around tight corners, where there's already less weight on the rear.
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not true for 125 because engine does not have much braking say if you are doing 50 going from 5th to 4th will not have much effect. Going in 3rd or 2nd may have some braking effect but you have more risk of losing traction and unsettling the bike than using the brakes.
You are right riding 125 or big bike are different.
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Last edited by Val on 17:44 - 27 Aug 2014; edited 1 time in total |
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Clutchy
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| Posted: 17:04 - 27 Aug 2014 Post subject: |
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Can't recall the last time I braked into a corner, I usually slow down before hand or lean more! I don't think I'm a particularly slow rider. Maybe it's years of tuition on a kart circuit 
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| Howling TerrorOutOfOffice |
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Howling TerrorOutOfOffice
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Posted: 17:21 - 27 Aug 2014  Post subject: |
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Goes without saying that on the road you should do your braking in a straight line. However, there will come a time when you will need to brake during a corner even if you haven't overcooked it.
Slight braking on the front or light braking on the rear?
Is this a flat road or is the corner downhill? Is it wet? Am I almost fully leaned over or can I lean more? Say if it's some debris or [insert what you want here] gravel should I even bother braking or should I stay loose and keep a slight throttle?
I have used the front and the rear..sometimes both. Sometimes I've just pushed the bars harder and dropped my shoulder more.
There doesn't seem to be a definitive answer. 
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 11 years, 223 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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