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Derbi 5 pin regulator/flasher pinout

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jagwaugh
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 14:51 - 03 Dec 2015    Post subject: Derbi 5 pin regulator/flasher pinout Reply with quote
Hi all,

Working on a Derbi Senda 50 (year 2000) for my daughter. Someone has butchered the electrics quite badly. I have managed to get it all running again with the exception of the flashers.

The connector at the 5 pin single row voltage regulator/flasher unit has been hacked, and I need to know what colour wire goes where, as I think they have been refitted into the connector on the harness wrong. at the moment it is (from top to bottom)

Yellow/Green (earth)
Yellow (Alternator)
Red (Battery)
empty
Orange (Turnsignals)
Red/Black (Ignition Switch)

Best regards

Andrew
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WD Forte
World Chat Champion



Joined: 17 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 03 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
JFGI


https://motomanual.jimdo.com/app/download/8087312684/moto_schem_Derbi_Senda_moto.jpg?t=1435696823
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jagwaugh
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 03 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
WD Forte wrote:
JFGI



Thanks, I have the schematic,via google. Unfortunately, the schematic doesn't list the pinout.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 16:00 - 03 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
What you have is correct according to the diagram I'm looking at.

Check your bulb wattages. Make sure the repeater light bulb is intact. Make sure the housing of the repeater bulb is insulated from the frame as it's sometimes live.

You should be getting power at the orange wire. Try hooking that directly into an earthed flasher bulb.
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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jagwaugh
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 03 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
What you have is correct according to the diagram I'm looking at.

Check your bulb wattages. Make sure the repeater light bulb is intact. Make sure the housing of the repeater bulb is insulated from the frame as it's sometimes live.

You should be getting power at the orange wire. Try hooking that directly into an earthed flasher bulb.


The Schematic shows them in that order, yes, but that may just be for making the drawing more readable.

Bulbs, switches and wiring are in order. There is no 12v at the orange wire. The regulator may well be toast, but the connector may ALSO have the wires at the wrong pins. I'd like to verify that the connector to the regulator is correct before I plug a new regulator into it. I am getting 13VAC at the yellow wire, so the alternator output is ok. All I need is a picture of the connector showing the wire colours.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 16:18 - 03 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
jagwaugh wrote:

The Schematic shows them in that order, yes, but that may just be for making the drawing more readable.


Doesn't work like that.

The wire-outs on every motorcycle wiring diagram I've ever seen are representative of their position in real life.

The one shown above even shows the connector blocks and the wire colours and orders going into and out of them.

Nothing at the orange does tend to suggest it's toast.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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jagwaugh
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Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 04 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:

...snip

Nothing at the orange does tend to suggest it's toast.


I'll order a new reg then. One thing that did seem strange to me is that the AC output from the alternator goes DOWN when I rev the bike: is this a sign that the bridge/regulator part is also fried, or that there is a problem with the windings?

Bike seems to run fine otherwise, no ignition stumbling, starts first kick.

Been a long time since I worked on a bike, I'm more familar with antique cars.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 12:40 - 04 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's possible but AC/DC systems are odd beasties at the best of times.

The AC frequency alters with revs as well as the voltage so the RMS doesn't necessarily reflect the overall power output.

The lighting will be tasking power out while this happens too.

There are so many variables, it's difficult to predict its behaviour. Looks like yours just has a single coil on the actual power supply part so I'd suggest if it's making power at all, the coil is intact.

The ignition is on a totally seperate circuit to the lighting/accessories.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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jagwaugh
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 04 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
It's possible but AC/DC systems are odd beasties at the best of times.

The AC frequency alters with revs as well as the voltage so the RMS doesn't necessarily reflect the overall power output.

The lighting will be tasking power out while this happens too.

There are so many variables, it's difficult to predict its behaviour. Looks like yours just has a single coil on the actual power supply part so I'd suggest if it's making power at all, the coil is intact.

The ignition is on a totally seperate circuit to the lighting/accessories.


Single (yellow) wire out of the magneto/alternator, so only a single coil. Only had an el cheapo dvm, so even on AC scale, not sure how it reacts to frequency changes. If I don't get any luck with the new reg I will put a scope on it.

Depending on how the voltage regulation is done, and how the flasher (in its failed state) loads up the output of the bridge I can imagine it just snubbing the DC output. Didn't see any signs of drastic battery gassing, so I'm presuming that it hasn't been feeding AC to the battery, or if it has it has been lower than the battery voltage.

Thanks for the info.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 17:24 - 04 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yeah, most of the AC/DC systems I've seen just use a straight diode. Not even a regulator, they just use the battery to damp down the voltage. I doubt yours will contain anything much more sophisticated. They generate a lot of heat in use, probably why a lot of them fail.

What's different with yours compared to most I've seen is that it seems to take all the coil output then somehow split it between the battery and the lights. Most small bike systems I've seen use a split magneto coil where they use the entire coil to charge the battery with the lights off and use a take-off halfway along the windings to split the output with the lights on.

An odd bike has a 12v AC regulator. The only two I've seen are on Lambrettas and late Enfield Bullets and they use one of the three phases for the AC componant.

I once had a russian bike that ran entirely on 6V AC. All good until you need a new horn or flasher relay...

Be aware than many of them are extremely fussy about the current loading on the AC side. If you fit bulbs with too high a wattage, they'll all be dim. Too low a wattage and they pop. A classic is a cascade bulb failure. One bulb goes and the rest pop one after the other.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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jagwaugh
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 03 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 04 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:

...snip
Be aware than many of them are extremely fussy about the current loading on the AC side. If you fit bulbs with too high a wattage, they'll all be dim. Too low a wattage and they pop. A classic is a cascade bulb failure. One bulb goes and the rest pop one after the other.


Yes, _That_ might be the explanation for the electrolytic capacitor which I found in the Bulb added as a Daytime Running light (obligatory here in Switzerland). The bulb was wired on the DC side, but I guess it may have been designed for use on the AC side as well.
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stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 04 Dec 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
jagwaugh wrote:


Yes, _That_ might be the explanation for the electrolytic capacitor which I found in the Bulb added as a Daytime Running light (obligatory here in Switzerland). The bulb was wired on the DC side, but I guess it may have been designed for use on the AC side as well.


They (as in the Japanese manufacturers) Usually use a big ballast resistor in paralell with the daylight running bulb to take the draw up to the same level as the headlamp bulb. Which is why I never bother using it on my small bikes. May as well use the headlight because there's no saving in current draw.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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