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Thundercat arcing, HT leads, Plug?

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drbaig
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Thundercat arcing, HT leads, Plug? Reply with quote

Yesterday I noticed the ticking noise coming from the engine is indeed the plug arcing. I could see sparks from the plug cap to the cam cover.

Now this phenomenon is only occurring when the bike is hot up to temperature. Starts fine. Runs fine.

I checked the cap there is no damage.

Is it as simple as a worn out plug or a new HT lead?

I will post a video later after I get home from work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwozRGUYUlI
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Last edited by drbaig on 20:13 - 04 Feb 2016; edited 2 times in total
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mudcow007
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PostPosted: 12:20 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

can you remove the plug from the lead? some are molded on so you cant do anything with them

if it is removable, cut the lead down a touch an rescrew the plug back on
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 12:37 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd just replace the lot.
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 14:11 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought that I was having a similar problem on my Exup.The silicone leads that I had fitted years ago all measured some misleading resistances with big differences between two short leads,so I replaced the leads with new copper core items and all new plug caps and it now runs far better Thumbs Up

On closer inspection of the OEM plug caps I can see that where the caps are moulded together there is a crack that opens up when hot,causing the spark energy to dissipate to the cylinder head,which is the easier route than via the spark plug Shocked
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
I'd just replace the lot.


I was wondering if it would come to that. Gonna be a royal pain removing the tank the airbox carbs to get the coils in this stupid cold weather.
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fizzer Thou wrote:
I thought that I was having a similar problem on my Exup.The silicone leads that I had fitted years ago all measured some misleading resistances with big differences between two short leads,so I replaced the leads with new copper core items and all new plug caps and it now runs far better Thumbs Up

On closer inspection of the OEM plug caps I can see that where the caps are moulded together there is a crack that opens up when hot ,causing the spark energy to dissipate to the cylinder head,which is the easier route than via the spark plug Shocked


Maybe that's what is happening on my thundercat.

At first I thought that line was a crack. On closer inspection I couldn't see anything. So maybe when hot it is opening up.
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

A few months ago I took this video where I thought the clicking/ticking noise was header leak. At the end of the video there is a good angle at the plug cap and there are no sparks. I tightened the header and thought it was fixed since no noise.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU7niLVETgg

This following video is from this morning. I only noticed it yesterday after riding through heavy rush hour traffic filtering (new commute). The bike got quite hot and I could hear the ticking noise which I thought I had fixed by tightening header bolts.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwozRGUYUlI

I have also noticed that where the spark meets the plug cap there is discolouration there.

I think for a temporary fix I am going to insulation tape the cap and then revisit this problem when the weather is better.

I was also thinking if a simple fix of removing the cap and replacing that would be an option.
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

That looks to me like there is some kind of wear/break on the Lead.
Electricity to arc, has to find a route to earth, so it must be coming through where the arcing is happening, or there must be something conductive on the lead or cover causing this. It might be solved with a new plug, which would cause a cleaner route to earth when sparking, but for sure, I would replace the lead as well, as this is certainly worn.
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Snod Blatter
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PostPosted: 23:23 - 02 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a pair of NGKs wear out at nearly 30K miles, to the point where the sparks were arcing down the outside to the head - this was apparently the path of least resistance! It also refused to fire on full throttle, as the spark in the combustion chamber was poor. New plugs sorted it right out.
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 01:17 - 03 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Run your hands over all of the components, after the first few shocks you will agree with Stinky's post and just replace the lot.
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 03 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snod Blatter wrote:
I had a pair of NGKs wear out at nearly 30K miles, to the point where the sparks were arcing down the outside to the head - this was apparently the path of least resistance! It also refused to fire on full throttle, as the spark in the combustion chamber was poor. New plugs sorted it right out.


The plugs are only a few thousand miles old. They are over two years now though. Also saw some browning on the white ceramic part of the plug.

It can't be as simple as replacing a plug, can it ?

Ariel Badger wrote:
Run your hands over all of the components, after the first few shocks you will agree with Stinky's post and just replace the lot.


Have not noticed any shocks yet. Though my headlight bulb blew yesterday, full beam is still working though. Maybe the leaking current caused it Thinking

If this was not a time consuming fix and the weather wasn't a bastard I would be trying to sort this. With work and other commitments I am gonna have to temporary bodge and revisit this spring/summer.
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Snod Blatter
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PostPosted: 23:52 - 04 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

drbaig wrote:
The plugs are only a few thousand miles old. They are over two years now though. Also saw some browning on the white ceramic part of the plug.

It can't be as simple as replacing a plug, can it ?

Is the cap a tight fit on the plug? Is water perhaps getting in?

But yes, mine really was as simple as replacing the plug. Perhaps you got a duff one..? Your video looks a bit mental though, mine was just a yellowish spark crawling down the outside of the plug to the head, only visible in the dark.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 04 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the engine even start when wet? Confused
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 09:46 - 05 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snod Blatter wrote:
drbaig wrote:
The plugs are only a few thousand miles old. They are over two years now though. Also saw some browning on the white ceramic part of the plug.

It can't be as simple as replacing a plug, can it ?

Is the cap a tight fit on the plug? Is water perhaps getting in?

But yes, mine really was as simple as replacing the plug. Perhaps you got a duff one..? Your video looks a bit mental though, mine was just a yellowish spark crawling down the outside of the plug to the head, only visible in the dark.


Cap is a tight fit. I don't think water is getting in. I'll have a look over the weekend and see what all the plugs look like.

I put my hand on the engine cover and there is shocks coming off of it.

Rhino can you explain what you mean by wet? Bike starts fine when got or cold.
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weasley
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PostPosted: 10:41 - 05 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can get the coils out with the carbs in place - getting the tank and airbox off isn't that big a job but the coils are a bit fiddly to get at. One more fiddle is getting at the central spark plugs, but with the right tool and some patience this is doable.

The plug caps simply unscrew from the HT leads, and the HT leads from the coils. The plug caps are supposed to have a 10kΩ resistance - one of mine went open circuit so I replaced it with a used one off eBay. For the leads, a quick fix, if you have the spare length, is to cut a little bit off the end and reattach the plug cap.

The plug caps are not cheap new, hence why I found some on eBay.
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 17:23 - 05 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

drbaig wrote:
Rhino can you explain what you mean by wet? Bike starts fine when got or cold.


When you let it sit outside and it rains, it gets wet, doesn't it? Smile
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 05 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
drbaig wrote:
Rhino can you explain what you mean by wet? Bike starts fine when got or cold.


When you let it sit outside and it rains, it gets wet, doesn't it? Smile


Hah!

I thought you meant a flooded engine.

Although I have noticed a ring of rust around the right side on plug 4. Probably because bike leans left on the stand and water trickles down.

So, yeah it starts fine. It sits under a cover at mine and no cover at work. No problem starting. The arcing is only happening when the bike is hot.

I checked all four plugs. Plug no.1 is the one that arcs and it is the only plug with a brown band around it at the white ceramic insulator part.

It might just be a bad plug.

https://i.imgur.com/ri2D3AG.jpg
https://imgur.com/SEdE39i
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RhynoCZ
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 06 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

As water shouldn't be even getting there, it's time for the new caps. Buy the proper ones, specified for your motorcycle. As you can see the spark plug caps have a rubber ring on them that seals the spark plugs in the head.

I've seen older bikes with no water damage around the plugs.
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 18:13 - 06 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Checked the plug 3.5 reading at 20k ohms.

Checked the cap 9.5 reading at 20k ohms.

So I am thinking it is the cables ?
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Snod Blatter
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PostPosted: 18:55 - 06 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do the other plugs and caps read the same?
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 00:16 - 07 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Snod Blatter wrote:
Do the other plugs and caps read the same?


I have not checked them. I only checked the plug and cap no.1 that was arcing because it has been raining non stop all day and that is all I could get out quickly. If there was a garage all the coils/plugs would be out.

I checked the cap as the manual and Weasley said they are 10k ohms. It read 9.4 on the multi. I think cr9e plugs are supposed to be 5k ohms, it read 3.5. Unless that is low for the plug.

I only suspected the plug as it has a corona stain around it, and none of the others do. But apparently it is indicative of oil adhering to the plug, nothing more. Although it might still be as simple as a bad plug. https://imgur.com/qfvOOLv

So now the only other thing I can think that can be faulty is the ignition coil itself.

I'll have to check the others I suppose to completely rule out the plug in case 3.5k ohms is indeed on the wrong side. That is on the agenda tomorrow as well as the headlight because I have a few hours without wetness.
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 13:26 - 07 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Checked all the caps and plugs at 20k ohms

Cap 1 9.4
cap 2 12.3
cap 3 11.2
cap 4 9.6

Plug 1 3.75
plug 2 4.08
plug 3 3.73
plug 4 4.44

Put everything back and ran the bike for half an hour got it up to temp (100 degrees) no sparks, no ticking noise. Nothing. Maybe it was a lose cap ?

Or maybe it is an intermittent fault that will show up again at some point..
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ssray
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PostPosted: 08:39 - 08 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I usually when this happens, seal everything with either clear silicone(bathroom stuff) or silicone grease.
Remove leads and put a thin smear of either on the lead and the plug cap
Ray
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drbaig
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 13 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the culprit might be the spark plug.

I've changed the plug 1 and it's s not giving me any shocks when I touch the engine.

Although when I unplugged the cap 1 and started the engine with 3 other plugs capped I still got a shock from the cap 1. Is that normal? I mean the current has to go somewhere when is not going to the plug.
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ssray
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PostPosted: 02:58 - 14 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

drbaig wrote:
I think the culprit might be the spark plug.

I've changed the plug 1 and it's s not giving me any shocks when I touch the engine.

Although when I unplugged the cap 1 and started the engine with 3 other plugs capped I still got a shock from the cap 1. Is that normal? I mean the current has to go somewhere when is not going to the plug.


Yep that`s what happens
Glad you fixed it
Ray
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