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Help with Piaggio MP3 LT question, Legal / foot brake!?

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adrew765
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PostPosted: 21:18 - 26 Sep 2016    Post subject: Help with Piaggio MP3 LT question, Legal / foot brake!? Reply with quote
Hi, as a newbie here i have a Q around purchasing a used one of these MP3s, its 2011 LT 300 model in white/blue seat , however there is no foot brake on bottom right foot well! I have noticed this on some newer models in local shops and presume this is one of first ones released in 2011?

My Questions here is, the V5 doc says 'Trike' and it has also just passed its MOT until next sept as i've seen the doc, therefore is this legal to ride on my old car licence? the dvla and shops in London seem to be clueless too!

Thanks for any advice.
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MahatmaAndhi
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 26 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I was under the impression that all LT models had wheels spaced further apart than standard models, and that they had to have a foot brake to make it able to be ridden on a car license.
Ask The Police doesn't mention the foot brake though.

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q900.htm

Quote:


The licence you need to ride a Piaggio MP3 will depend on the power output and the spacing of the front wheels.

If the vehicle is classed as a motorcycle you'll need the appropriate category for its power output:

A1- Light motorcycle up to 11 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio of no more than 0.1 kW per kg) and 125 cc. The minimum age is 17.
A2- Standard motorcycle up to 35 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio of no more than 0.2 kW per kg) bike must not be derived from vehicle more than twice its power. The minimum age is 19.
A- Unrestricted motorcycles in power/size, with or without a sidecar. The minimum age is 21.

If the vehicle is classed as a tricycle, you can drive a motor tricycle of any power rating if you are over 21 and have a full car driving licence. If not, you will need a full category A1 motorbike licence to ride motor tricycles up to a power output 15 kW , and a full category A motorbike licence to ride trikes with a power output of more than 15 kW .


Hope this helps. If in doubt, ask the dealer.

The MP3 is a very heavy bike. It's a real head-turner too. If you're as self-concious as I am, don't get one. People will be nudging and pointing daily. I wouldn't get another. I sold mine and paid for the DAS.
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 26 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
As it is a trike I do not think it needs independent braking to the front and rear wheels so you can ride it on a car ticket.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 23:13 - 26 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
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If the vehicle is classed as a tricycle, you can drive a motor tricycle of any power rating if you are over 21 and have a full car driving licence. If not, you will need a full category A1 motorbike licence to ride motor tricycles up to a power output 15 kW , and a full category A motorbike licence to ride trikes with a power output of more than 15 kW .


You what Shocked

My 1500cc Goldwing trike was classed as a tricycle. Does that mean anyone with a full car licence could drive it?!!!!
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 26 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
All genuine LTS had a foot brake for the rear wheel

There is a lot of dealer made ones that had a spacer kit fitted to be sold legal to ride on a car licence before the proper ones came out

Even if you can legally ride one dfor you really think it's a good idea to get on a machine that can do 90 miles an hour is with no proper training

They handle like a bike accalerate like a bike and stop like a bike

They also fall over if you fuck somthing up like a bike
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adrew765
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
MahatmaAndhi wrote:
I was under the impression that all LT models had wheels spaced further apart than standard models, and that they had to have a foot brake to make it able to be ridden on a car license.
Ask The Police doesn't mention the foot brake though.

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q900.htm

Quote:


The licence you need to ride a Piaggio MP3 will depend on the power output and the spacing of the front wheels.

If the vehicle is classed as a motorcycle you'll need the appropriate category for its power output:

A1- Light motorcycle up to 11 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio of no more than 0.1 kW per kg) and 125 cc. The minimum age is 17.
A2- Standard motorcycle up to 35 kW (and a power-to-weight ratio of no more than 0.2 kW per kg) bike must not be derived from vehicle more than twice its power. The minimum age is 19.
A- Unrestricted motorcycles in power/size, with or without a sidecar. The minimum age is 21.

If the vehicle is classed as a tricycle, you can drive a motor tricycle of any power rating if you are over 21 and have a full car driving licence. If not, you will need a full category A1 motorbike licence to ride motor tricycles up to a power output 15 kW , and a full category A motorbike licence to ride trikes with a power output of more than 15 kW .


Hope this helps. If in doubt, ask the dealer.

The MP3 is a very heavy bike. It's a real head-turner too. If you're as self-concious as I am, don't get one. People will be nudging and pointing daily. I wouldn't get another. I sold mine and paid for the DAS.


thanks for help mate, its a private sale but this appears to answer i can ride it as passed car test 94! regarding other comments, i've done cbt's before so not really worried about the footbrake, some other people spoke to tonight mentioned this here which is more confusing!..
'The white blue one is a hybride never produced as a LT only as a motorcycle version and also stay away from the hybride the battery will last only 5 years max a new one OLD stock is 3200 euro so if its a 2011 you need a new battery espacialy iff it didn't have alot of miles on it'
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 00:49 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Polarbear"]
Quote:




You what Shocked

My 1500cc Goldwing trike was classed as a tricycle. Does that mean anyone with a full car licence could drive it?!!!!


Because Morgan.
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nitrosurf
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PostPosted: 07:08 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:


You what Shocked

My 1500cc Goldwing trike was classed as a tricycle. Does that mean anyone with a full car licence could drive it?!!!!


S'why you don't need a lid either. They make you bleed to a get a bike license, but any hooray with a cage license can splat themselves across the side of your house trying to stay on a trike or quad. I rode a quad on an off road course. It was fun. I rode a quad on road (LTZ400) and it was the most ludicrous thing in the world; not fun. Wheelied in the first three gears and wouldn't corner unless flat sideways. How they can determine that a bike needs all that money and licencing thrown at training to ride it, but a quad is perfectly safe without even a hint of DVSA Derek's intervention is beyond me...

I imagine trikes take practise on corners. At least one wheel at the front versions anyway. Two at the front with a bit of lean involved is probably not a terrible idea.

🏍
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
andyscooter wrote:
All genuine LTS had a foot brake for the rear wheel

There is a lot of dealer made ones that had a spacer kit fitted to be sold legal to ride on a car licence before the proper ones came out

That's my vague understanding too. That the ones with factory fitted foot brakes were homogenised and registered as trikes, but that it was perfectly legal to transform an extant "bike" into a "trike" just with spacers, because why would you want one department with a set of consistent regulations when you can have DVSA, DVLA, and six contradictory definitions.

However, that means that it's likely been modified by an insurer's definition. Not that I'd declare it (how would you be sure?) and it's hardly likely to be an issue, since the chances of you being tugged and asked to prove your innocence licensing status are minuscule anyway.

If you want it, have it, just don't go mad on the price.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 09:01 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
adrew765 wrote:


thanks for help mate, its a private sale



just make sure it is a legal road one rather then an owner who doesn't quite know the law and thinks it is

we had a bloke round here riding the Yamaha one on his car licence but it wasn't legal for him as Yamaha don't make a car legal trike
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:44 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I imagine he got away with it though. Oh, while technically you can 'drive' them without a helmet, I expect that would be the best way to actually get tugged and have an awkward conversation.
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adrew765
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
andyscooter wrote:
adrew765 wrote:


thanks for help mate, its a private sale



just make sure it is a legal road one rather then an owner who doesn't quite know the law and thinks it is

we had a bloke round here riding the Yamaha one on his car licence but it wasn't legal for him as Yamaha don't make a car legal trike


cheers andy, by road legal - it has a new Mot doc until sept 17 , so if there was issue surely wouldn't pass this test by definition? the v5 i've seen says 'Trike' too and tax form £82 for year ,so i'm assuming its ok, police site above also says i can ride on car lic so guessing its just insurance issues then as someone mentions!?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
nitrosurf wrote:
Polarbear wrote:


You what Shocked

My 1500cc Goldwing trike was classed as a tricycle. Does that mean anyone with a full car licence could drive it?!!!!


S'why you don't need a lid either. They make you bleed to a get a bike license, but any hooray with a cage license can splat themselves across the side of your house trying to stay on a trike or quad. I rode a quad on an off road course. It was fun. I rode a quad on road (LTZ400) and it was the most ludicrous thing in the world; not fun. Wheelied in the first three gears and wouldn't corner unless flat sideways. How they can determine that a bike needs all that money and licencing thrown at training to ride it, but a quad is perfectly safe without even a hint of DVSA Derek's intervention is beyond me...

I imagine trikes take practise on corners. At least one wheel at the front versions anyway. Two at the front with a bit of lean involved is probably not a terrible idea.

🏍


But when I had my trikes, you needed a bike licence to ride them, the hang over from the reliant robin. When the hell did they change that law?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:
But when I had my trikes, you needed a bike licence to ride them, the hang over from the reliant robin. When the hell did they change that law?

It's OK, they've changed it back again. Since 2013, new licensees need cat A rather than cat B to 'ride' a trike.
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
adrew765 wrote:

cheers andy, by road legal - it has a new Mot doc until sept 17 , so if there was issue surely wouldn't pass this test by definition? the v5 i've seen says 'Trike' too and tax form £82 for year ,so i'm assuming its ok, police site above also says i can ride on car lic so guessing its just insurance issues then as someone mentions!?



If it's been dealer converted, make sure the MOT tester changed it's classification from Class 2 to Class 3, otherwise things coould get a bit fractious if claim time comes around and the insurance company want to see your certificate.

Also, you can check if it's been converted - measure across the width of the front wheels, from tyre centre to tyre centre; if it measures more than 18", it's classified as a trike.
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adrew765
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shaft wrote:
adrew765 wrote:

cheers andy, by road legal - it has a new Mot doc until sept 17 , so if there was issue surely wouldn't pass this test by definition? the v5 i've seen says 'Trike' too and tax form £82 for year ,so i'm assuming its ok, police site above also says i can ride on car lic so guessing its just insurance issues then as someone mentions!?



If it's been dealer converted, make sure the MOT tester changed it's classification from Class 2 to Class 3, otherwise things coould get a bit fractious if claim time comes around and the insurance company want to see your certificate.

Also, you can check if it's been converted - measure across the width of the front wheels, from tyre centre to tyre centre; if it measures more than 18", it's classified as a trike.
thanks mate, will show on latest MOT cert if Class was changed on its mot on 20th Sept? i will measure the wheels too Smile
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:09 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shaft wrote:
Also, you can check if it's been converted - measure across the width of the front wheels, from tyre centre to tyre centre; if it measures more than 18", it's classified as a trike.

Why centre to centre?

Exactly 18"?

Classified for what purpose(s)?

I ask to reduce my ignorance a bit, I've not got trikes straightened out in my head.
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Polarbear wrote:


But when I had my trikes, you needed a bike licence to ride them, the hang over from the reliant robin. When the hell did they change that law?


IIRC it went from bike license to cars in 2001 then back to bikes in 2013 then in a shocking display of common sense granted on both car and bike licences a year or so back.
As for what the real position is on riding a motorcycle mp3 on a car licence I would assume that would be an ecumenical matter.

I don't see why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over people riding them on a car licence.
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adrew765
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PostPosted: 20:49 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
andyscooter wrote:
All genuine LTS had a foot brake for the rear wheel

There is a lot of dealer made ones that had a spacer kit fitted to be sold legal to ride on a car licence before the proper ones came out

That's my vague understanding too. That the ones with factory fitted foot brakes were homogenised and registered as trikes, but that it was perfectly legal to transform an extant "bike" into a "trike" just with spacers, because why would you want one department with a set of consistent regulations when you can have DVSA, DVLA, and six contradictory definitions.

However, that means that it's likely been modified by an insurer's definition. Not that I'd declare it (how would you be sure?) and it's hardly likely to be an issue, since the chances of you being tugged and asked to prove your innocence licensing status are minuscule anyway.

If you want it, have it, just don't go mad on the price.
regarding price what is price for decent condition one 300LT with 17000km 2011 plate?
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MahatmaAndhi
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jmon wrote:

I don't see why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over people riding them on a car licence.


When I worked in the city centre, I saw a guy riding a 400 LT. As a fellow MP3 owner (at the time) my initial thought was "Oh, cool!" but then I saw that he never wore a helmet. And legally didn't have to. He's probably dead now with a caved in skull.
That's my only issue.

adrew765 wrote:
regarding price what is price for decent condition one 300LT with 17000km 2011 plate?


You're going to have to do the footwork on this one. Prices change. And the MP3 will almost always carry a premium. They're expensive for what you get. Check eBay for ended listings. You could narrow the search field down to something very similar and gauge a fair price from previous sales.

Start here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo&_udhi&LH_ItemCondition=4&_samilow&_samihi&_sadis=15&_stpos=PE46EP&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&Capacity%2520%2528cc%2529=225%2520to%2520374%2520cc&_nkw=piaggio%20mp3&LH_LocatedIn=3&_dcat=122177&rt=nc&Model%2520Year=2013%7C2012%7C2011
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Shaft
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 27 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Shaft wrote:
Also, you can check if it's been converted - measure across the width of the front wheels, from tyre centre to tyre centre; if it measures more than 18", it's classified as a trike.

Why centre to centre?

Exactly 18"?

Classified for what purpose(s)?

I ask to reduce my ignorance a bit, I've not got trikes straightened out in my head.



Quoting from the MOT manual:

"A motor tricycle is a three wheeled vehicle on which none of the wheeled elements is recognisable as a side car. These vehicles are in Class III or IV, depending on their weight.

Other than for the inspection of tyres, any two wheels of a motorcycle shall be regarded as one wheel, if the distance between the centres of the areas of contact between such wheels and the road surface is less than 460mm"

I'll do the maths for you and tell you that 18" is actually about 457mm, but, AFAIK, the widetrack versions of these three wheelers easily exceeds 460mm, so total pedantry is not required.

For a bit of backstory, the 18" measurement was introduced to allow the original twin rear wheel Transit to fall into the less stringent category of test, as it was then - it was rounded up when we went semi-metric.

I made myself a little pointy tool from plasma cut steel sheet, specifically for measuring this obscurity - as yet, I have not had cause to use it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:58 - 28 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Shaft wrote:
[Definition]

Hmm. That's the definition from the Motor Cycles (Protective Helmets) Regulations 1998, which is a curious thing to rely on. I can't find a better one though.
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adrew765
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 28 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
MahatmaAndhi wrote:
Jmon wrote:

I don't see why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over people riding them on a car licence.


When I worked in the city centre, I saw a guy riding a 400 LT. As a fellow MP3 owner (at the time) my initial thought was "Oh, cool!" but then I saw that he never wore a helmet. And legally didn't have to. He's probably dead now with a caved in skull.
That's my only issue.

adrew765 wrote:
regarding price what is price for decent condition one 300LT with 17000km 2011 plate?


You're going to have to do the footwork on this one. Prices change. And the MP3 will almost always carry a premium. They're expensive for what you get. Check eBay for ended listings. You could narrow the search field down to something very similar and gauge a fair price from previous sales.

Start here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&LH_Sold=1&_udlo&_udhi&LH_ItemCondition=4&_samilow&_samihi&_sadis=15&_stpos=PE46EP&_sop=12&_dmd=1&_ipg=50&LH_Complete=1&Capacity%2520%2528cc%2529=225%2520to%2520374%2520cc&_nkw=piaggio%20mp3&LH_LocatedIn=3&_dcat=122177&rt=nc&Model%2520Year=2013%7C2012%7C2011
. Thanks fell!found a 2013 plate for 3600 but has 21000km, high miles it seems?!
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 07:58 - 29 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jmon wrote:


I don't see why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over people riding them on a car licence.


would you let completely untrained people out on a 400cc motorbike

this is basically what they are doing
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adrew765
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 29 Sep 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
andyscooter wrote:
Jmon wrote:


I don't see why some people are getting their knickers in a twist over people riding them on a car licence.


would you let completely untrained people out on a 400cc motorbike

this is basically what they are doing
exactly mate! i get your point here,i've done a few CBTs and ridden in london for 8yrs but you have to be careful i wouldn't get on a bike without training for sure..this just allows me to nip around without having to do the full bike test
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