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grr666
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PostPosted: 10:36 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
At what age do you lot write a kid off and say he deserves to die?

At 14 I used to ride about on a moped and I was a little toe-rag. I grew up. This lad won't get the chance....

I haven't had my 'dad' gene triggered beyond being very fond of my dog. So in the cold light of day and without being
blinded by "give them the benefit of the doubt" reasoning I still say he was only going one way and chose his own path.
In the long run society is better off without him. I wonder if the owner got their moped back?
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 10:40 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 that's absolutely spot on.

Sure I was a bit naughty when I was that age - wasn't uncommon for us to syphon petrol from a mates dads works van and dump it in his mothers Lada. We'd drive everywhere in that Lada. I do know now that it was a shitty thing to do - especially if we'd hit a pedestrian.

London has something very different growing. It's not fun to them, it's a way of life.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 11:07 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not defending him - he probably was a little twat on a slippery slope to gangbanging and putting caps into people's bottoms...

My point is that we live in a society where a kid can be written off at the age of 14, and that can't be right, surely?

I'm not comparing myself at 14 with him directly because my circumstances were very different. I grew up in the middle of nowhere where the local plod rode a pushbike, drank with us in the pub and really didn't care what we did unless somebody got hurt. My life revolved around cheap lager, field-bikes, music, fishing and wenching, plus my life-chances were infinitely higher than his because of who I was and where I lived.

Its all about the hand you are dealt with...
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grr666
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:

My point is that we live in a society where a kid can be written off at the age of 14, and that can't be right, surely?


But they grow up so quick these days. I'm only half joking. I bet he was 6ft plus at 14, I was 5 foot 3 at the
same age. Bet he used his size to intimidate though once he started to get into his teens. Plus they have the internet
don't they? It's effect on society is marked and clear to see. It creates an impatience in people that simply wasn't there
when I was a kid. Robs them of their innocence much earlier too, I never saw hard core porn until I got to upper secondary
school. A group of us went round my mates house at lunchtime and he put a video on. They have smartphones by 10 years old
now and access to all manner of material that means they stop being kids much sooner than we did. I know they are
only products of their environments to a certain extent but at 14 I was way more child like than our dead pal on the
moped here. But I knew right from wrong and that if you do bad stuff it comes back to you sooner or later. It wouldn't
have ever dawned upon me to hurt someone else to get what I wanted. The new crop wouldn't even see it as
doing something wrong, to the get rich or die tryin types the ends always justify the means and you can't be too brutal.
I wasn't capable of a thought process like that at 14. So many people work their arses off trying to keep black kids out
of gangs. Youth groups, social workers, mentors, sports clubs, special schemes at schools to reward success and as
much kid glove handling and "respect" given to them as they can soak up. Yet they still carry on with all this postcode crap.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:13 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know kids have changed in lots of respects - mine aren't the same as I was at their age because they think that seeing it on YouTube makes it somehow 'real' and normalises things we were never exposed to. What I do know however is that emotional development hasn't changed in the same way, and that a kid at 14 is no more mature in that sense than we were.

Kids like our moped bandit and those in the car never really stand a chance, and whilst I don't know what we can do about it, I think that in a civilised society such as ours, that is wrong.

Re. the porn, when I was a kid we didn't have videos. We only ever watched them in school on those big televisions. We used to have magazines found in hedges which were named after the owner. I had one which I discovered in the box of a chemistry set I got for Christmas. Somebody at the factory must have hidden it there whilst packing. It was black and white, probably from the 60's and more 'reader's wives' than Mayfair or Fiesta...
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 12:22 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure he'd have grown up to be a brain surgeon and not the thieving, drug dealing, illegal riding, knife carrying, gangster he'd already become at 14.

There is no cure for chav or stupid unfortunately.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

See, I'm arguing they have a sub civilisation of their own which they choose to embrace rather than what's offered
to them by wider society. I mean who wants an honest, productive and unexciting long life eh? You never seem to hear
of an aspiring gas fitter or kitchen fitter being stabbed up for his belongings. That's because they are too busy at
work trying to better themselves the slow and boring but right way. But when you bring these kids up thinking that
streetdance, urban music, professional sports and stage and screen are more viable futures than something with it's feet
on slightly firmer ground then you're setting them up to fail. Sure some do make it big. But most don't. Shame they are
by and large, too dumb to see that and look into occupations that are slightly less difficult to make a relative success of.
Who wants to work all year fitting boilers for 50k when you can earn that in 3 days as a pro footballer, or three months selling coke?
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 12:55 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mpg I don't understand what you are saying. Are you arguing that if he had my childhood, he would have become a brain surgeon, or that regardless of childhood he would become a gangster because he was born a chav or stupid? Neither makes sense...

grr666 I agree that they choose to embrace it because it is the easy option in the short term, and in lots of cases probably the only option available. This is where society fails, because we allow it to be the easy option. It has nothing to do with intelligence imo, more the choices they have.

What we are doing now is what the USA has been doing for years. We are resorting to ghettos and self-imposed segregation as our answer. It doesn't make things better, it just compartmentalises the problem. The results of doing this long term can be seen in places like Detroit. Detroit was fine when people had jobs.

Targetted investment in education is the only way forward, so that kids like our moped-bandit have a choice. I know this is unpopular because it is seen as giving handouts to the undeserving poor, but as a society we should be viewing it as an investment. We have the alternative now and it doesn't look good....
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Diggs, while I understand your argument to me it doesn't hold water.

The chances of that little scumbag ever being a productive member of society are bordering on nil.

Parents have taken no responsibility - it's always the state/society/someone else's fault.

The kid has no interest in learning a trade or a career (as Grr says), all he wants is everything NOW, and he's going to take it.

He's already carrying a knife. He's already involved in gangs.

If he turned round and went to his teachers (I doubt he even knows what school he should be in but beside that) and asked for help getting out of the gangs, improving his education then great, help him. If he doesn't then why spend a penny on try to rehabilitate the unrehabilitateable when there are good kids crying out for help and funding.

So I nail my colours to the mast and say - one less to worry about. Thumbs Up
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 13:31 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Sorry Diggs, while I understand your argument to me it doesn't hold water.

The chances of that little scumbag ever being a productive member of society are bordering on nil.


I think Mr Diggs was referring to what could have happened before the boy reached the "scumbag" stage.

The chances of the boy ever being a productive member of society are in fact nil, not "bordering nil". He's dead.

Neither is "He already carrying a knife. He's already involved in gangs". He's dead.

It is better rather than to "try to rehabilitate the unrehabilitateable" to try and ensure they don't require rehabilitation in the first place.

Parents directly, and society above them, have much to answer for.
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 13:40 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

I think Mr Diggs was referring to what could have happened before the boy reached the "scumbag" stage....

Parents directly, and society above them, have much to answer for.


So it's all down to "society" and "parenting" is it? Why are stabby stabby, moped mugging drug dealers almost always black then? Why are almost all child sex grooming gangs made up of mainly Pakistani's? Nothing to do with culture or genetics then?

What exactly does society do to create such bad parents and future but only for ethnic minorities? Is it to create a victim mentality and a massive chip on their shoulders, or do we deny them education and opportunity? Force drill rap on them? Gangster culture? Tribal cultural references?

We do this in Africa and Asia too do we, because Pakistan is the rape capital of the world and Afrcia one of , if not the most violent?
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grr666
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

The likes of him would shank your daughter at the traffic lights for her Mash 50 as soon as look at her and fuck off leaving her dying
in the road calling for daddy to come and save her while her life ebbed away out of the knife wound to her guts. Then
he and his mates would unapologetically rap about the killing, using it to coldheartedly demonstrate to others that they
aren't to be messed with, the whole time making gang signs and swaggering about in masks in their next You Tube
drill music video.

Sorry to be blunt Rieju, but I'd wager your girl is in training or further education or something worthwhile and
making something of her own life. Somebody like her losing their life after being accidentally caught up in their nasty
grubby gangsta world long enough to be stuck in the ribs and kicked to the floor truly would be a loss, but not shits like these.

One's things for sure, he won't be stealing her Mash 50. He's dead. Thumbs Up
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:06 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:
( 8< )


"I think Mr Diggs was referring to what could have happened before the boy reached the "scumbag" stage"

There you are, I've put the point in bold, to be helpful.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

It can't be parenting - Diane Abbott told us "West Indian mums will go to the wall for their children."

Unless she meant go to the hole in the wall and rob it for their children. Thinking Wink
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
grr666 wrote:
( 8< )


"I think Mr Diggs was referring to what could have happened before the boy reached the "scumbag" stage"

There you are, I've put the point in bold, to be helpful.


Ah OK, point taken.

Free birth control for scumbag mothers. Thumbs Up
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-.
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
grr666 I agree that they choose to embrace it because it is the easy option in the short term, and in lots of cases probably the only option available. This is where society fails, because we allow it to be the easy option. It has nothing to do with intelligence imo, more the choices they have.

No it really does. These aren't honour students, I think schools do waste their time with kids that aren't academically inclined, the really bad ones (which happened to be black Wink) were sent to the local college, I assume so they could beat up or get beaten up by people their own size Smile

What annoys me is this they have no choice narrative, which I can tell you is 100% BS. Virtually everyone I knew growing up was from a broken home sink estate single alcoholic/druggie parent family, and many of us didn't go down that road. It seemed to be down to (natural) intelligence + temperament.

Diggs wrote:
What we are doing now is what the USA has been doing for years. We are resorting to ghettos and self-imposed segregation as our answer. It doesn't make things better, it just compartmentalises the problem. The results of doing this long term can be seen in places like Detroit. Detroit was fine when people had jobs.

Detroit was fine before whitey left. Compton was fine before whitey left. The reason why black areas are such shitholes is because they're predominately black, if you have a mix you only have a semi-shit area, but contrary to popular belief black people are actually very racist and make it clear white people aren't welcome.

We aren't that far off the same situation over here, if you're white in a black area you have to put up with hostility, I genuinely believe with certain organisations stirring up racial tension and telling every minority group they're persecuted, and that white people are the problem "get off our street or else" will become the norm' rather than the exception.

Diggs wrote:
Targetted investment in education is the only way forward, so that kids like our moped-bandit have a choice. I know this is unpopular because it is seen as giving handouts to the undeserving poor, but as a society we should be viewing it as an investment. We have the alternative now and it doesn't look good....

See my earlier post: https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=4607723#4607723

Also you're underestimating how much damage a young innocent boy can do. The person caught melting faces of delivery riders was only 15. I also agree with grr666, it's like some super evolution or something, at aged 10 a lot of my black mates were 5'6" with a 6 pack Very Happy I didn't catch up until I was in my mid-teens.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Sorry Diggs, while I understand your argument to me it doesn't hold water.

The chances of that little scumbag ever being a productive member of society are bordering on nil.

Parents have taken no responsibility - it's always the state/society/someone else's fault.

The kid has no interest in learning a trade or a career (as Grr says), all he wants is everything NOW, and he's going to take it.

He's already carrying a knife. He's already involved in gangs.

If he turned round and went to his teachers (I doubt he even knows what school he should be in but beside that) and asked for help getting out of the gangs, improving his education then great, help him. If he doesn't then why spend a penny on try to rehabilitate the unrehabilitateable when there are good kids crying out for help and funding.

So I nail my colours to the mast and say - one less to worry about. Thumbs Up


I take it you are advocating the ghetto solution then?
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-.
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
I take it you are advocating the ghetto solution then?

Is Walthamstow a ghetto? It's just another slightly shit part of town, there's nothing about these areas that cause the issues (in terms of being cut-off etc..), except for having a few rough estates.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its how things will end up without positive action.

Now, there's an expression likely to rattle a few cages.

3,2,1.....
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mpd72
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PostPosted: 15:32 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
grr666 wrote:
( 8< )


"I think Mr Diggs was referring to what could have happened before the boy reached the "scumbag" stage"

There you are, I've put the point in bold, to be helpful.


I'm sure Hitler wasn't dreaming of gassing the Jews when in nappies.
It was obviously societies fault for what became of him. Rolling Eyes

Oh no, sorry, that excuse is only applicable to ethnic minorities. Mind you, he was an immigrant. Idea
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that according to results, the worst performers at school are poor working class WHITE boys, there's your target for 'targeted investment'
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-.
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PostPosted: 15:55 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diggs wrote:
Its how things will end up without positive action.

Now, there's an expression likely to rattle a few cages.

3,2,1.....

What would you call investing... sorry MPD spending a shit load of money on sink estates and inner city schools? I'm not being unnecessarily mean or racist when I say the culture needs to change. The system/society have done their bit as far as I can see.

I'm also not saying there's a golden path out for them, you're pretty much guaranteed to stay poor if you follow the education > shit job path, but I don't see that as justification for harming others and your community.

Johnnythefox wrote:
I believe that according to results, the worst performers at school are poor working class WHITE boys, there's your target for 'targeted investment'

I also believe they're the least likely to go to university, due to spending on inner-city education etc.. Still the system's racist Crying or Very sad

I actually think it'll get worse with the diversity drive, as assuming it's successful white working class people will continue being peasants, whilst ethnic minorities get ahead... well the ones that aren't stabbing each other (Razz).

It would be less divisive if they did it by 'class', but the issue with that is you have a massive pool of white peasant folk, which would probably swamp the diversity drive.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

All the investment I've been involved with has been based upon area rather than colour or class. The bidding process however has involved demographics.

It would be difficult to assist areas based upon class if we have a series of ghettos based upon ethnicity.
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Sister Sledge
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PostPosted: 16:37 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

So... who is funding these wannabe gangstas then? Who is buying the drugs?
Surely the buyers are fueling the problem too?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 10 Jan 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

grr666 wrote:

In the long run society is better off without him. I wonder if the owner got their moped back?


Can't disagree with your hatred for the guy but does it help? Who are you blaming, and/or do you have any thoughts on how to stop it happening again?

More police? Stricter schools? Less immigration?

All things which require from a government which hates giving to anything that looks like public service.
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