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Maintenance free chain? BMW say yes.

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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Maintenance free chain? BMW say yes. Reply with quote

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EggOnfHUwAEgFTc?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EggOnfLVgAUJ2hy?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

BMW say they've built a chain you never have to lube or adjust thanks to some new whizzy-coated rollers. It's optional on the S1000RR & XR.

Costs £100

https://www.bmwmoa.org/news/523555/BMW-Motorrad-announces-maintenance-free-motorcycle-chain.htm
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arry
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saw this on a FB riding group earlier. Within 20 minutes it was full of:
    BMW Component Quality means it'll last 10 minutes
    It'll be too expensive
    Their engineers are wrong and I'm right


Laughing

Similar thing happened a week or so ago with BMW's pivot-less carbon swing arm. Bunch of amateur riders second guessing it and calling it a leaf spring - completely ignoring the fact it still has a relatively conventional rear shock and spring arrangement.

Looks interesting to me.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

So if it is relying on the component coatings, what are the seals for?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Re: Maintenance free chain? BMW say yes. Reply with quote

Howling Terror wrote:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EggOnfHUwAEgFTc?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EggOnfLVgAUJ2hy?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

BMW say they've built a chain you never have to lube or adjust thanks to some new whizzy-coated rollers. It's optional on the S1000RR & XR.

Costs £100

https://www.bmwmoa.org/news/523555/BMW-Motorrad-announces-maintenance-free-motorcycle-chain.htm

An interesting idea.

Why does it need any "resident permanent lubricant" at all for the rollers and pins enclosed by X-rings, though, if the "ta-C" coating does not wear, and is so friction-free, I wonder? Come to that, why does it need X rings at all?

What are the sprockets made of?

Interesting, and I'm sure someone will be testing IRL before long.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
So if it is relying on the component coatings, what are the seals for?

Blast. Seen off again.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
So if it is relying on the component coatings, what are the seals for?

It does say in the article that is has a lubricant but I suppose the coated rollers just reduce wear.
A lot of articles are calling it lubricant free, which obviously isn't true. I suppose most people dont realise the oil they put on their o ring chain is for rust prevention, not really lubricating anything. With all the coatings, this wouldn't need it.

"having to spray cleaners and lubricants on a chain means a smaller environmental footprint, something BMW touches on in their press release as well."

Environmental footprint has always been my concern when I'm prepping my supermoto for a ride Laughing I guess that sort of thing excites BMW riders.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always thought what wears out o-ring chains it's the sprocket/roller interface that wears.

That's where you direct the oil with a scotoiler and I know they massively increase chain and sprocket life.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not wanting to derail the thread but why have belt drives not caught on more being maintenance free and long lasting? Is it purely to do with size/width?

And as for that BMW chain, I wouldn't hold my breath for much increase in lifespan over a decently maintained DID or other premium chain.
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arry
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PostPosted: 17:57 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

And as for that BMW chain, I wouldn't hold my breath for much increase in lifespan over a decently maintained DID or other premium chain.


But you don't have to maintain it, oil it, get it spattered everywhere etc. So I guess the advantage comes from that, not necessarily from lifespan.
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martin734
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The chain might be maintenance free, but how long will the sprockets last without oil? If you still have to oil the sprockets then it won't be much different to any other decent chain will it? Confused
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arry
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PostPosted: 20:10 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

martin734 wrote:
The chain might be maintenance free, but how long will the sprockets last without oil? If you still have to oil the sprockets then it won't be much different to any other decent chain will it? Confused


You'd think BMW engineers would have thought of that, wouldn't you.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

They only expect to get 5k miles out of the engine of a s1000 so maybe it's for them.
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martin734
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PostPosted: 20:20 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
martin734 wrote:
The chain might be maintenance free, but how long will the sprockets last without oil? If you still have to oil the sprockets then it won't be much different to any other decent chain will it? Confused


You'd think BMW engineers would have thought of that, wouldn't you.
I wouldn't be so sure, they still don't seem to have worked out how to make a decent gearbox, or electrics that work properly.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

arry wrote:
martin734 wrote:
The chain might be maintenance free, but how long will the sprockets last without oil? If you still have to oil the sprockets then it won't be much different to any other decent chain will it? Confused


You'd think BMW engineers would have thought of that, wouldn't you.


Wear happens whenever two surfaces rub on each other. The chain might not wear but martins point is valid. The sprockets will.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:22 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

Wear happens whenever two surfaces rub on each other. The chain might not wear but martins point is valid. The sprockets will.


Same coating material as the chain components?
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arry
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PostPosted: 22:41 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:

Wear happens whenever two surfaces rub on each other. The chain might not wear but martins point is valid. The sprockets will.


Yeah true, it's a valid point. But a point armchair pundits will know less about it than the people conducting the tests before they release a chain that will just chew through sprockets.

The scepticism of biking advancements is astonishing.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 23:09 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Polarbear wrote:

Wear happens whenever two surfaces rub on each other. The chain might not wear but martins point is valid. The sprockets will.


Same coating material as the chain components?


chickenstrip wrote:
So if it is relying on the component coatings, what are the seals for?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 23:43 - 28 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

The O/X-seals on this and existing chains keep assembly oil between pin and roller. The innovation here is the coating on the rollers which contact the sprockets.
Quote:
a new coating... which they call tetrahedrally amorphous carbon (ta-C)... is characterized by extreme hardness and resistance... BMW further states the ta-C coating drastically reduces friction...

Still, it's four times the price of a normal chain... Thinking
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only in 525 pitch too.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 11:19 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:

Same coating material as the chain components?


chickenstrip wrote:
So if it is relying on the component coatings, what are the seals for?


So you have to buy BMW's sprockets as well at what price?

Yes, I'm sceptical. As an engineer I was brought up with the understanding that all metallic parts that rub on each other have to have some form of lubrication or suffer from wear.

If BMW have developed a coating, which is going to be microns thick, that eliminates wear in metallic contact parts even with no lubrication I'm sure there are many more incredibly important uses than as a motorbike chain.

Did I say I''m sceptical?
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
If BMW have developed a coating, which is going to be microns thick, that eliminates wear in metallic contact parts even with no lubrication I'm sure there are many more incredibly important uses than as a motorbike chain.

Did I say I''m sceptical?

A very thin coating on top of what: what happens to the thing it's on top of when there's a huge point load from pinching some grit between the roller and the sprocket, and what happens to the coating then?

I'm sceptical too; time will prove all things, I think.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 12:41 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:


Yes, I'm sceptical. As an engineer I was brought up with the understanding that all metallic parts that rub on each other have to have some form of lubrication or suffer from wear.

If BMW have developed a coating, which is going to be microns thick, that eliminates wear in metallic contact parts even with no lubrication I'm sure there are many more incredibly important uses than as a motorbike chain.

Did I say I''m sceptical?


Maybe it has already come from some application or industry of greater significance, or is based on such a material? But everything has a down side, whether it be purely price due to rarity of materials or difficulty of manufacture, or some other factor more to do with the actual physical properties of the material. Maybe it gets so hot that the whole bike bursts into flames leaving behind nothing but a chain and sprockets in perfect condition Laughing Yes, I know, silly...but it perhaps gets my point across.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.ctemag.com/news/articles/need-ta-c

(etc.)
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Robby
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting. Even if it doesn't get anywhere near the lifespan of a chain with a scottoiler, from the owners point of view it could be like having shaft or belt drive - ignore it, and let the dealership do some kind of maintenance or replacement at the annual service.

It also makes sense, as regular tinkering is needed less and less for new bikes. Oiling the chain is one of the last remaining necessary bits, along with checking tyre pressures (although I'm finding that tyre/wheel combinations are getting better at keeping all the air in).
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 29 Aug 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fooling people into thinking they dont have to maintain their chain.

It's that simple. Mr BMW rider will happily accept never lubing their chain and put up with how long the chain will last because fine BMW said so Thumbs Up

Sorry, utter shite, buy a shaft drive.
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