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Walloper
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Joined: 24 Feb 2005
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
With respect, I do not agree that the Government are Nannying us.

If 'one' were the only person to suffer ANY effect from one's action then it would be Nannying.

The 'But':

If one's action affects others in a detrimental way then I would hope someone could have powers to intervene and try to prevent the incident in the first place.

Previous Nannying
Seatbelts in cars save a lot of hassle for the health service.
Less time devoted to injury from flying out windows etc.

It is not just a simple control situation.

I believe the person proposing the rules has some well found good intention for bringing it up.

Whether it helps or not is the debate.

I think, personally, it's a good idea to ride with lights on.
I do not think it's a good thing that legislation is frequently required for matters concerning our safety.
But then common sense is a rare thing these days.
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Louise
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have my full light on all the time. I forgot to put dipped on now and then. Soon as the key turns, lights are on and im sorted.
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bazza
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PostPosted: 13:30 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
common sense is a rare thing these days.


It is whenever you post. Thumbs Down
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bazza wrote:
Walloper wrote:
common sense is a rare thing these days.


It is whenever you post. Thumbs Down


bazza my old fruit, you just can not help yourself can you?

Fight it mate, see if you can't confine your irrelevant 'twee' to the playground heart. Razz
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:

Previous Nannying
Seatbelts in cars save a lot of hassle for the health service.
Less time devoted to injury from flying out windows etc.

It is not just a simple control situation.

I believe the person proposing the rules has some well found good intention for bringing it up.


Seatbelts in cars have massively increased the survivability of car accidents. They therefore have cost the NHS a hell of a lot more time and money as ongoing care and therapy costs mount up very quickly, compared to a one-off cost for extracting a corpse from a wreck and investigating a fatal accident.

Since airbags have been in use, the quantity and quality of donor organs have declined considerably. The number of young people dying from massive head trauma (leaving a whole body-full of healthy organs) has dropped through the floor.

Most legislation is pretty much common sense and is really unnecessary. People who choose to do something will do it, and those who don't do it, don't, regardless of what the legislation says. All the legislation does is criminalise those who don't do what they're told, and more importantly, it removes choice from people and is intrusive.

A good government is one which isn't noticed as it does its work. People are positively affected by it without having things they disagree with rammed down their throats without a choice. A good government rules for the benefit of the masses and isn't just dedicated to keeping themselves in power and stomping on the little guy. New Labour is not a good government.[/b]
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="mchaggis[/quote]


What mchaggis said. Thumbs Up
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natv4
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Joined: 31 Dec 2004
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PostPosted: 20:39 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
If one's action affects others in a detrimental way then I would hope someone could have powers to intervene and try to prevent the incident in the first place.

Whether it helps or not is the debate.

I think, personally, it's a good idea to ride with lights on.
I do not think it's a good thing that legislation is frequently required for matters concerning our safety.
But then common sense is a rare thing these days.
Walloper, whilst I understand your viewpoint, I just don't think this is a situation where one's actions affect others in a detrimental way.

Automatic Lights on appears to be brought in to protect us from the inabilities of others. I think that is quite a distinction. This will only benefit (apart from the rider) other people whom should be doing a better job anyway. I manage see cars that are running with lights off in the day, I wonder if its because it may kill me? Are you suggesting that by colliding with them because they were not paying enough attention is our fault for not being conspicuous enough? It is their sole responsibility, just as it is ours to keep ourselves alive by trying to avoid this.

As others have already stated; the optimum solution for being visible throughout the day, is to have the option to run with lights off but to normally run with lights on. So this legislation is going to reduce visibility in certain situations for many experienced riders without any benefits.
Why legislate for something that does this?

Surely legislation should be brought in to improve a situation. This may help for some people (the very dim - pun intended) but even relatively new riders seem to know that they should ride with lights on. So again why legislate? This should be part of rider training, not legislation.
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natv4
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
mchaggis wrote:
New Labour is not a good government.[/b]

I would agree, but also feel I should add...
"but then, none of the alternatives are."

Democracy seems fine, but as someone once said - "The desire to be Prime Minister, should automatically preclude you from ever attaining the position."
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 23:02 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="natv4"]
Walloper wrote:
If one's action affects others in a detrimental way then I would hope someone could have powers to intervene and try to prevent the incident in the first place.

Bla bla bla......


How much electronic paper would it take to explain everything that concerns this issue?

I never suggested that the goverment must legislate safety upon us all.

I did say,

"I think, personally, it's a good idea to ride with lights on.
I do not think it's a good thing that legislation is frequently required for matters concerning our safety."


But I am in whole agreement with your point caller.

I only say we need legislation because stoopid people keep doin' stoopid things.
And sometimes others get killed by this stoopididity.

Cheap i.e. Rider, without lights on, pootling down the road (at speed within posted speed limit). Wee lassie crosses road infront of invisible (to her) rider.
BANG!!!

It happens all the time.

Really, what we all need to do is drive (and other stuff) with the understanding that everyone else is out/determined to kill you.

It's extreme 'Defensive Driving'. If you do not recognise a threat then why have any defense?

Because you do not percieve danger does not mean there is none.

Yin and Yang

For all plus there is negative.
Balance.
Feng Swee et al.

Prattle prattle.

I'm going to eat now C U L8R.
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 23:19 - 29 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
To put it simply, if I see a headlamp, I think Bike! If every vehicle has a headlamp on, I just stop seeing anything special.

Cars having headlamps on will make precious little difference to them. They aren't exactly high risk road users so haven't that much to gain. If every vehicle has headlamps on, bikes will lose the advantage of having the lights on as they won't be noticed any more.
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bazza
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Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 02:33 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
I only say we need legislation because stoopid people keep doin' stoopid things.


What a crock of shit.

You end up with everyone suffering from laws made to control the stupid. For instance, driving without due care and attention is already illegal - why introduce a law to try and make driving while using a mobile phone a separate offence?

Quote:
Really, what we all need to do is drive (and other stuff) with the understanding that everyone else is out/determined to kill you.


You do that with better training, not restrictive legislation.
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mooky
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PostPosted: 03:47 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:
Apart from the fact there is quite a bit of evidence to show that day-time running lights increases the accident rate for motorcycles?


really?

Research in Aus showed quite the opposite. There was a long tv campaign advocating it some years ago. Dont know if its law though.

Now, admittedly, the roads there are much more open. But I know from many years driving a car on country roads & highways, you spot a bike with its lights on much sooner than one without. A lot of that has got to do with bike styling - where popular colours tend to match the colour of sealed roads :-/

But there have been 2 occasions where I have been about to overtake and only _just_ noticed in time an oncoming bike without its light on. And I am a very experienced, and careful driver. I've never had that heart-stopping experience with bikes with their light on during the day. And Im not the only one. Friends and family expressed the same - was a common topic of conversation when the ad campaign was on.
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Kickstart
The Oracle



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PostPosted: 07:46 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
mooky wrote:
Research in Aus showed quite the opposite. There was a long tv campaign advocating it some years ago. Dont know if its law though.


When I was in Aus back in 1996 it was compulsory to have daytime headlights on. However they had found that this had made no difference to the accident rates and the government had said they were going to repeal the law.

All the best

Keith
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bazza wrote:
Walloper wrote:
I only say we need legislation because stoopid people keep doin' stoopid things.


What a crock of shit.

You end up with everyone suffering from laws made to control the stupid. For instance, driving without due care and attention is already illegal - why introduce a law to try and make driving while using a mobile phone a separate offence?

Quote:
Really, what we all need to do is drive (and other stuff) with the understanding that everyone else is out/determined to kill you.


You do that with better training, not restrictive legislation.


I do not use bcf to learn how to behave better in society.

But you could do with a few pointers bazza my little cutie pie.

Your issue in this thread is Use of Headlights on Bikes or Moi?

Stop sneaking around the Karma Kloisters ya phanny.

Get it out in the open big boy, lets see what you're made of.
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bazza
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Joined: 27 Aug 2004
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
I do not use bcf to learn


Rolling Eyes
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
bazza wrote:
Walloper wrote:
I do not use bcf to learn


Rolling Eyes


bazza, your dead at playtime pal! Evil or Very Mad
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dew
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Joined: 26 Sep 2006
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
I just picked up my ninja and hv not even an option to switch off the headlight. Though am more visible 'cos there r two smaller lights as well, which makes it distinct then what was shown in the pic (in front of SUV)...
Personally i would hv switched it on anyway, but this now stops me forgetting about it. Thumbs Up
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 21:41 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Quote:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/clip_image002.gif


Er, so what does this prove? That you should constantly pay attention to whether the car behind you has its lights on or not, and do the opposite? Very silly.

I have my lights on all the time anyway, but i'd like to be able to turn them off in a crap battery/knackered alternator situation, so i'd prefer the choice myself.

Zen Dog
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 21:53 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Zen Dog wrote:
Quote:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/clip_image002.gif


Er, so what does this prove? That you should constantly pay attention to whether the car behind you has its lights on or not, and do the opposite? Very silly.


Force the car and the bike to have lights on all the time, and you won't have the choice.

You simply won't notice a vehicle with lights on as anything other than being a vehicle with lights on, and won't make a distinction between bikes and cars. Normally if I see something with lights on in the day, I think Bike! When everyone has lights on, things with lights on aren't unusual so there's not necessarily any extra attention paid to them.

I choose when to put my lights on, according to the situation I'm in. It isn't always safest to have them on. I'd like it to keep the choice.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 30 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="Zen Dog"]
Quote:

I have my lights on all the time anyway, but i'd like to be able to turn them off in a crap battery/knackered alternator situation, so i'd prefer the choice myself.Zen Dog


It may be a cruel twist of fate for you to be out riding and your light fails.
But as far as the law is concerned you would need to park it up.

The law does not consider inconvienence in such matters.

Pity.

Join the AA for forty quid and you would be covered. Laughing
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Yosemity Sam
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PostPosted: 00:31 - 31 Oct 2006    Post subject: how to be noticed? Reply with quote
Sound advice from 'down under' so to speak:

If you go to the following link, it sums up our views (click on generic)

https://www.pleaselooktwice.com/
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 31 Oct 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Spin time.....
In the pic both the vehicles are parked.

A driver sitting at a junction will/should notice a shape that is moving against a fixed background
sooner/more easily than a stationary object against the same background.

If the car is behind the bike the two vehicles would move and bounce at different times as they head down the road.

That being so, it would mean that either there is something weird happening to the light of that R/rover or there is something infront.

So the driver looking at that image coming towards him should notice 'the unusual', hesitate and make sure it's safe to pull out.

Just some conjecture for t' pot. Laughing
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natv4
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PostPosted: 00:45 - 02 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
So the driver looking at that image coming towards him should notice 'the unusual', hesitate and make sure it's safe to pull out.
I'm afraid I may well have spotted a problem with your muse. Drivers do not tend to look for a period of time. The general consensus seems to be to glance (snapshot) a couple of times. While this does normally show movement, I doubt it would provide the detail required to notice the effect you describe.

Of course I may be wrong and all drivers may be brilliant at observation. Was it not yourself that suggested we should do everything we can to ensure we are seen?

Zen Dog wrote:
Er, so what does this prove? That you should constantly pay attention to whether the car behind you has its lights on or not, and do the opposite? Very silly
Not at all, this thread is a little crossed. The image is to show that compulsory daytime lights on for ALL vehicles will mean that bikes are significantly less visible. It is in argument against forcing all vehicles to do this. In an ideal world, you would be able to notice your surroundings and maximise your visibility accordingly, but practically I tend to only switch off at day break (for an hour or so) if I'm riding away from the sun (maybe a dozen times a year).
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 02 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
natv4 wrote:
Walloper wrote:
So the driver looking at that image coming towards him should notice 'the unusual', hesitate and make sure it's safe to pull out.
I'm afraid I may well have spotted a problem with your muse. Drivers do not tend to look for a period of time. The general consensus seems to be to glance (snapshot) a couple of times. While this does normally show movement, I doubt it would provide the detail required to notice the effect you describe.

Of course I may be wrong and all drivers may be brilliant at observation. Was it not yourself that suggested we should do everything we can to ensure we are seen?



Na na na na na na.......

You knew, of course, that I knew, that they knew, that the driver new, the biker knew!

I allways assume (makes an ass of u & me.) that 'they' are out to get me.

It's the safest way to ride.

I was only 'spinning' as suggested in the post.

The 'Spin' being that the original argument states, loosely, that if we all have our lights on us bikers will blend into insignificance.

I do not dispute that theory.

My argument is: The theory is not hard and fast.

There are more factors than those hi-lighted (No Pun).
ie weather cond. time of day, speed of bike. amount of traffic, background activity. (Busy/Plain) and cetera.

I think years ago there were 'some' accidents because bikes did not use daytime lights. (Other accidents too, for other reasons.)
There was some argument, maybe around the same time, that said "the statistical evidence suggested that Sweden had reduced accidents by using daytime lights on cars".
Did this information influence the adoption of the same 'rule' for bikes?
DAS in UK train new riders to use lights in daytime.

Anolo-G
Like reflective vests.
I used one for about two weeks after pass then flung it in the cupboard.
The car drivers see you 'EYE-BALL YOU' but do not give a fuck and pull out anyway as you present 'zero' danger to them.
If you were driving a 38 ton Artic. they would politely wait.

I will continue to drive with my lights on and anoy others as normal.

On aproach to junctions it's handy to weave and cause the 'Hunter' instincts of the car driver to be alerted to you.
Doesn't work with women drivers tho.... Embarassed Karma
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kawakid
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Joined: 15 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: 02:39 - 03 Nov 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote
Always ride with them on anyway, so doesn't bother me at all.
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