What to Race - 650 vs 675? (long post)

[G]

First off, I'm afraid I only want people that have read at the very least the orange conclusion sections* to vote in the poll.
Sorry, if you haven't got the time, I'm sure we can find you another poll to use your voting skills in, how about this one....
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=94180

*No, not done because I want BCF to be the next myspace, as it seems quite a few people have been trying to make it over the last few months .

I got a letter through today detailing that I am provisionally accepted for the Triumph Challenge Championship.
This means I have to make up my mind whether to accept or not.

To be honest, if this is a lot more done for me to work it out in my head; so don't expect me to actually listen to what people vote!
So if you've thought "oh, no... another rambling thread from G", I suggest you leave now, it'll be worse!

I don't normally post such things on here and most of the time I'm pretty clear on what I want, but so far my feelings are very much 'on the fence', as both sides have good points.




650
I'm racing in minitwins at the moment.
This is almost exclusively a single model series - SV650s.
We are allowed to modify them, but only down to very strict guidelines - for instance not allowed more than 72hp. While the rear shock can be replaced, only the fork internals can be replaced.
Pretty much all parts have to stay stock.

I expect I will be put in the 'DynaPro' class next year. This means there will be some very fast people at the top of the class - the winner from last year has a sponsored ride in Eurpoean Superstocks this year!
My laps times this year have generally put me around 13th-17th place in the Dyna Pro class.
However I'd definitely hope to be still improving and moving up a bit further.

The SVs aren't the fastest of bikes; I prefer a bike with around 100hp for a good combination of speed vs not being afraid to use the power on track. Get it right on a grippy track and you can get on the power very early on an SV and hold the throttle wide open.

The DynaPro minitwins uses a single qualifying followed by 4 shorter length races - 7 to 10 laps per race, depending on the circuit.
A single qualifying session means that if anything goes wrong here, you're at the back for the next 4 races.

I can enter as many or as few round as I want. As I can't see me getting near the top of the championship, it'd be nice to have the option to miss rounds, both to save some money and to do things such as going to festivals and the like.
This would also give me time and money to have a play with stuff like (dirt bike) enduros, which I would quite like to have a go at.

Rounds will be paid for as and when. This means that money can be very tight when there's two rounds within a month. However I won't need to fork out any cash until the season begins.

Minitwins feelings:
I like the idea of having the freedom to do what I want when I want, with less pressure to do well.
I don't like the bikes as much, both thanks to the bland delivery and the less than race focused components.
I definitely like the idea of not paying of the year for a few years to come.
Having more money means I can have a bit of a life outside of race meetings.
With, probably, at least one other local BCFer entering on a similar bike, spares can be shared.
Keping my road SV makes sense, which is nice as I just got a MOT and Tax.
Spares are more plentiful and can be got cheaper, though I've got pretty much everything I need already.


675
This is a one model series (Triumph 675). Bikes will be mostly stock, you won't be allowed to even open the engine up I believe.

Bikes will be brand new, which accounts for £5000 of the total entry fees.
Having had quite a few problems this year with my already raced, a few year old bike, I quite like the idea of a brand new bike.
Also, as stock the Triumph seems to be sold as a bike intended for the track, so brakes and the like are a much better spec than my commuter SV650. However, this also means more regular maintenance, so extra cost in oil etc.

The £12000 entry fee includes the bike, Bemsee entry fees (a bit over £2k for the year), 27 tyres - 2 rears and a front per weekend (could easily be seen to be about £2700 worth). Also a few other 'extras' are included, such as more tickets for spectators (sponsors).
Not included are testdays (minimum £1000 for the year), transport to and from the tracks (£500), other consumables such as oil, filters, brake fluid (about £500). Crash damage (could be lots £?), wets on wheels, better suspension setup and a few other bits (£1500).

So, we can see the £12k is only very much a starting point. Ideally I really need a better van as well, never mind lots of other expenses. I would expect I could very easily spend £20k doing that.
Now I do race because I enjoy it, but there's a whole load of other fun I could have with £20k!
However, paying money up front may mean it's easier to budget through out the season.

The triumphs definitely have a much better potential for sponsorship. However this also means more work ensuring everyone is happy.
Could be a good thing, as I could do with improving my 'sales' style schmoozing skills.

I have never felt that I quite 'clicked' with the SVs, maybe I will with the triumphs? Or maybe I will hate them.

I expect the Triumphs will be run with powerbike style races - so we're talking two qualifying sessions on the first day, followed by a superpole race. Then two longer races on the Sunday. Two qualifying sessions means that if one session goes wrong, there's still a fall back, which is always nice.

However longer races means I'll definitely have to sort out my fitness, which has been dropping through the season as my back's got iffyier.

I don't know what the standard of competition is likely to be. With the SVs I know there's people I can dice with, while it may turn out I'm right at the back on the Triumphs. Of course there might be a lot of slower riders than me, but this seems less likely.

This could turn out to be quite a prestigious championship and something that could be 'good' to be involved in, but I suspect that will apply much more to seriously fast people that have a hope of international class racing.

I'll definitely have to sell a few bikes to be able to afford this, which means sorting out my ZX9 for road use probably, so more hassle.

675 Feelings:
I like the idea of very close racing, with even less possible differences in the bikes. Race focused bikes and more powerful should mean more fun to ride. (Oh and should wheelie better )
Money is a big issue. I'll be paying an awful lot of money for this and having to pay it back over a period. This will mean money is tighter generally and I will be compelled to enter all the rounds I can reasonably.
Time is also an issue, but hopefully per race meeting the newer bike should take relatively less fiddling time.
Oh and when you vote, please ignore the first two options.
I get a Triumph 675 to keep at the end of the year, including the option of road registration and all the road kit cheap.
This could be sold to pay of some debts, or kept as a pretty sorted strack/street bike, or would make a good basis for a fairly cheap to maintain race bike for the future.
Less spares means more space in the van and less hassle.



I'm sure I will enjoy racing in the Triumph Triple Challenge more than in minitwins.
However, what I'm trying to work out is it worth the extra money, time and hassle?

[Dom_]

I've voted the 675.

If you feel you can definitely afford it, then go for it. Sounds a lot funner and a change is always nice, especially to a better bike which you will much prefer riding. Plus the style of the races (tighter rules) will mean much more competition....which i see as a good thing.

Less breakdowns (hopefully) and less stuff to go wrong with the newer bike, should mean a slightly less stressful season.

Cheap plastics and rearsets are the only things you'll be needing hopefully, other generic parts like levers and switchgear can be bodged on from other bikes (in a true g style) if triumph parts are really that expensive.

As for money about going out, well, thats a decision your going to have to make, i know nothing about your social life. Although cutting down on smoking might help you with the fitness.

I think you may have already made up your mind, and just want BCF to confirm it. Go for the Triumph.

[Irezumi aka Reuben]

I voted Triumph as well, but with some reservation's.

[G]

Don't know how much you saw of it, but I'd say I was showing a decent amount of agression etc, when I was chasing for 3rd at Mallory (ok, I know I didn't get it ).

However, taking the step up to Dyna-pro, there's a lot more very fast people - so I'd have to be pretty damn good to be aiming for podiums, regardless of agression.

I am not doing it to win, whatever I do. While it is nice, it doesn't bother me not winning nearly as much as it does some.
When I know I haven't raced well, it does bother me more. Getting decent places in Bemsee is one suggestion that I'm racing well, but I'm happy to feel like I'm going well for me.

Dom: Before I got the letter, my mind was more on what I would be doing SV wise than 675 wise, so if anything I'd say my mind was more made up that way.

[Irezumi aka Reuben]

[Kickstart]

Hi

Not sure.

The costs of racing the 675 will be high. Difficult to know how high (eg, the tyre costs, are you allowed to sell the used tyres gaining back £1k over the year, or must they be returned). Also from what you have said the bike must be presented in a professional condition for each meeting (so realistically that is new race bodywork from the organisors after each event at which you crash). I suspect many of those going for the series are those who want to make something of it as a career, and they are likely to be rather younger than you (probably with fairly rich parents, check some of the race transporters used by the Superteens lads), and for them £20k can be considered an investment. Plenty will probably be running a 2nd 675 as a backup.

The SV650 is cheap to race. For the costs of the 675 series you could probably buy a couple of SV650s new and race them for the year. Bodywork is cheap. Spares are cheap (and plentiful on Ebay).

With the 675 you should not have any significient difference in bike performance to any other rider.

You say you prefer revvy bikes, and while the 675 is more revvy than the SV, it is still far from being the screamer that a (for example) current R6 is. However, how competitive you are on the machine is not the same as how much you enjoy its power deliver, similarly how much you enjoy the power delivery is not necessarily related to how much you enjoy the racing (for example, the TZR250 you did a weekend on, more interesting power delivery by you didn't enjoy it that much).

Also, not being funny, but can you really afford the £20k per year budget for racing the 675? Given that you moved from the SS600 class to save money, and that was substantially cheaper.

All the best

Keith

PS - Not voted
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[Barry_M2]

G - If it were me I'd go to the Dyna-Pro series. Think of the experience you will gain from the faster riders.


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CBR1000 RR4 - For the track.
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[Bendy]

Considered finding a 'cheaper than triumphs but more revvy than minitwins' series, perhaps offered by another club?

[stinkwheel]

I can only regale you with a tale from a friend of mine who races bikes.

In his younger days he used to race bikes in the Avon Production series. Provide your own bike, do not mess with it at all, choose your own tyres but you get extra points if you place on Avons. He rode 250X7s, GT500s then TZR250s and thoroughly enjoyed it. Then family came along and he stopped.

Scroll on 25 years and he decided to get back in to biking. Entered the Bob Mac classic series and Manx GP classic. Started off small, with a single bike in the 350 class and was running well. Coming well placed but due to the way the series is scored, he wasn't entering enough races.

Next year he bought a matchless 500 to go with his Aermacchi 350 and entered more races. More money. More time.

The following year he decided they weren't reliable enough. Bought a CB350K and a black bomber. More money, more time.

So. He's won the race series but he's giving up. He has landed up putting his house on the line and falling out with his wife.

In short. What was supposed to be a hobby, turned into more of a job, but a job where YOU have to pay the wages.

Where he went wrong, by his own admission was taking it too far. If he was serious about riding race winning bikes in that series, he should have got sponsorship (well, more serious sponsorship, he had some but just for stuff like race fees and leathers).

So, if it is going to put you into serious financial straits, stick where you are, where it is a fun hobby. If you want to move up, get the finances sorted out first so it is not YOUR money on the line. Otherwise you will feel that you have invested so much in it that if you are not being sucessful, you feel obliged to spend more trying to get faster to justify what you have already spent. It is a vicious circle... Then your engine throws a crank pin and the job is fucked.

Another example, my mate who rides drag bikes (the one with the supercharged 'busa). In his first year, he rode a tuned but essentially standard SV650 in the 10.50 class. Blew an engine and had sundry expenses but nothing excessive. Rode the bike to the meetings.

That year he won the championship.

Since then he has bought progressively flasher bikes, so there is a drag-trim TL1000R lying in the garage now doing nothing (not fast enough) and the 'busa. Has he been as sucessful? No.

I get the impression (although it would be hard to get him to admit it) that in many ways he would have been better to stick with the SV. He had fun, he was sucessful, but he didn't spend all his life in the garage fabricating parts and repairing engines.

Wow, quite a ramble. Don't know if I've been helpful or not.

[colin1]

crafty poll

i agree with kickstart that if u dropped out of another thing which was cheaper than 675s to go to the cheaper minitwins, maybe u shdnt be doing 675s

i agree with bendy that maybe you shd just find something more revvy than sv650s

i agree with stink that you should think about spending time trying to get sponsorship, but on the other hand i know a girl who used to race cars and for her trying to get sponsorship was a full time job so not sure how easy it would be to do on top of a full time job

Id suggest making sure you are running a tight ship and doing everything right that you can do on minitwins. I got the impression (maybe wrongly) that sometimes things were a bit slapdash, and if u were like that with the 675s it wd just be a waste of money.

So Id say be as good as you can be on minitwins for another year and that includes all the organisation stuff. Maybe have a second bike so last minute tyre decisions are just about which bike to race on rather than last minute changes. At the same time, get a 675 for track day use and push it hard and get to know it and think about racing a 675 next year if you get on ok with it.

getting competitive in moto X might be another option and it wd be something completely different that you could start at a lower level
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[G]

An idea of the comparison of costs -
Triumphs; take the £5k bike out (which I reckon I will recover easily enough), we're left with £7k.
Tyres for a full season of racing SVs will come to around £1900, leaving us £6100.
Take out entry fees and we're down to about £3700.

A fair bit, so not quite so significant a difference.


But then if I can blag VAT off that (sponsorship kinda stuff, won't go into details), I'd save about £1800.
Take account for the fact that I'm getting 2 sets of tyres per weekend (not two rear one front as I thought) and we're talking a similar price to the minitwins - though of course I don't need so tyres in minitwins so much and may not be able to do other stuff.
Of course more tyres owned means more to sell, as well.



If you take out the stuff that can be sold on after the racing (suspension, WOW etc) - in some cases breaking even if not making a profit, with some of the prices offered, I reckon about £1500 could be knocked of the total - this is also stuff that I have for the SV, but could sell to gain some more capital.

Basically, costs will only be a relatively small amount higher for the Triumphs if I do a full season. Sadly the SV isn't nearly as cheap as something like YPM to race in; however you still have to spend quite a bit in YPM to keep up at the front.
The important factor to me is that the SVs will only be expensive if I decide to do it, while I have to be dedicated to the triumphs.

Remember that £20k is about a maximum cost I reckon (did say £15k - £20k, I believe) - it could be done cheaper, definitely. Also over £6k of that can probably be recovered at the end selling the bike and bits.
I've probably got about £6k in total of SV stuff that I could sell (if I get around to it) which would effectively take out the bike bit from the whole equation, leaving a slightly less scary sum – even using some of the ‘capital’ in bikes I have at the moment and selling it off to get some money back.


Reuben:
As I've mentioned elsewhere, self belief only really works up to the point that it's not too far past realistic.
At the moment, I would say it's very much realistic to say belief that I could cut it in the top end of MotoGp isn't much further than belief I could cut it in the top end of MRO - either will lead to disappointment.
I would like to get better so I will be closer to the latter, though.

However, I expect the top people in either class will be of a similar level. In fact, there's a higher probability there will be slower people riding 675s; just because I don't know the composition, while I do know there are very fast people in DynaPro.



Keith:
I'm not quite so bothered by a revvy bike for racing - should be in the 'powerbandy' bit all the time, so is less obvious the difference in and out as you shouldn’t see out .
The trumpet revs to 14000rpm, which is pretty high still, if it's true - however it doesn't produce power in such an aggressive way as a four.

What is more of a factor is the power. That's partly the reason I didn't get on great with the TZR (partly also because it was loaned and someone else needed it the next day - so if i crashed because I didn't know the bike, someone else lost out - oh and I suffered as I did on the SV at Snetterton, braking way too early.)
If I had a chance to race a (reliable) 72hp TZR, I'd have taken it over the minitwins any day.

I'm not sure how much serious racing I'll do after next year. I'll see how it goes, but not being able to afford to do much the year after isn't a big negative.
So it's a one off kinda £20k - so I'm paying for a year of 'better' racing - and could do with some time off to do other stuff anyway (though that's an argument for Minitwins, of course).

I'm pretty sure you're not allowed a second bike. This series has actually been designed to be a pretty budget controlled series (ie see the top people in MRO SS/PB that can easily spend £40k in a season and be left with a lot less 'capital').
Relative to a lot of other series it could definitely be considered cheap - most definitely for what it offers; the chance to race a 600 class bike against others that have no advantage as far as the machinery goes.
Ie, compare it to the R6 cup where there's a base price of over £20k and people can easily spend quite a lot more than that, I believe.

Crashing is a good point and one I’ve considered – I don’t think they’ll be quite so harsh though and I have a ‘plan’ .

Barry:
There will be faster riders than me in either championship - and I can't learn much from those that whizz past on a practice day or I don't 'meet' in a race as they stay ahead. So providing there’s some people only a bit faster than me, it should be ok.

Stinkwheel:
See your point, but as I've said, don't think cost is a big issue if considering the whole season.

I am aware that I don't want to take it too seriously, which is why I'm looking at two classes that mix budget with fun.

I suspect I will spend a lot, lot less time in my garage fabricating parts on the Triumph than I do at the moment on the SV.
Thus, I'd also put the 'keeping it a hobby, not a job' as a Pro for the triumphs - less fiddling with an old bike and more getting on and racing it.

Again, I'd consider the two as fairly similar level, so we're not talking moving up, but kinda sideways and around a bit, possibly with a few undulations on the way .

Bendy:
Have looked around: a mixture of distance, club reputation and series offered has put me off.
If I have money, could be tempted to do a round or two with another club next year, though.

Colin:
Being 'slapdash' will only be a slightly bigger waste of money as it will only cost a bit more for the season.
Oh and if you're referring to the very late tyre change that cost me a start - well, I finished a hell of a lot better than those that didn't make the change and should have .
Not sure I want to get seriously into moto-x. It's all slidey, at the wrong end as well!

Edit:
A) Bloody 'ell, that was a long post.
B) I know it sounds I'm just supporting the triumph, but it is just a clarifcation of how I see things and thus why I'm not sure which will be best for me.

[colin1]

[G]

I do often use Electrical tools for such things.
Brining an air compressor would be what others would criticise as 'another piece of junk you don't need'.

Having a 'permanent' pit crew just for such things would help, as some people do.

What I would like is to have twenty people posted around the track, at two mile and five miles in two circles. They will then phone a coordinator with a weather report.
As that's unlikely, I'll have to stick to looking at the sky - and yes I could have made the choice earler, but earlier it also looked like the rain might past and it might stay dry.

Oh and as you may have guessed I'm not the most safety-nazi of push bike riders either. A long time since I've actually falled off due to laces getting trapped.


Personally, regardless of what some say, I think ;'running like a milatry operation' will only help in maybe 5% of cases, where something has actually gone wrong.
Remember, I'm doing this fun, not to try and win - I've seen too many people try to do it to win and found themselves disapointed and penniless.

On the comments of consistency a very brief overview of the season:

Snetterton
First time on track since Crashing at Brands the year before.
crashed on practice day.
Started slowly and got faster in the races.

Lydden
two 4ths

Mallory
Track I hadn't ridden before
4th place and variable results due to other factors.

Croix
Track I haven't ridden before, couple of top ten finishes and crash in the wet.
Didn’t really ‘get on’ with the track. Having a slightly lower mid range probably didn’t help much either, though I didn’t realise.

Snetterton
Hovering just over 10th place - but I'd say was riding not too badly considering how much I was losing out to other bikes.

Cadwell
Again, fairly consistent riding I'd say, and felt like I was pushing the bike fairly decently considering the power defecit.

Brands Hatch Indy.
C'mon, it's Brands Hatch indy - we see what happens when I try and push it that bit more with my DNF .

Pembrey
Suspension setup mid-weekend makes the bike feel a lot better, allowing me to progress a bit more and get some decent lap times before crashing - however maybe making it softer meant I couldn't brake quite so late into corners?


I do think I set my 'plateau' too low on practice days, then slowly expand it through race days. I'm fairly consistent in this .
I do try and make an effort on the practice days, but so far haven’t managed great results from that.

[Luke_Retrofly]

you dont /have/ to race



Luke
____________________
Flounced - Long overdue
Fuck you bitch I'm in the top 10 list I can do the what the fuck I want!

[dibbster]

Do they do orange 675's? and is there anything in the rules against the use of Gaffa tape?


Im not sure which series would be best, but I do get the feeling that the Triumph series could be a stretch financially. Maybe the answer could be to do another year of minitwins, then move to the Triumphs when it is established?
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[bazza]

[G]

Yes, I'm quite aware of that luke .

If I was to do a full year of minitwins, I wouldn't be in too great a financial situation either, as mentioned.

I'm fairly happy to not be doing much racing wise the year after - I'm definitely not intending on keeping on doing full seasons of racing for years to come.


Afraid the colour scheme is set before hand and can't be changed.


I'd much prefer to tell a potential sponsor a fairly realistic target that tell them I expect to win - they're going to be pretty annoyed when they find I've been knowling lieing to get them to give me a lot of money.
Rather I emphasise the real positve aspects I can bring to their business regardless of the position I finish in.

As I've said, the top of the MRO classes is generally a very fast pace. So believing I can win that wouldn't be that far off believing I can win motoGP (from my perspective) - and I bet everyone would laugh at me if I suggested that.

Regardless, I've looked into and talked to other racers about sponsorship quite a lot. Real world results make only a very little bit of difference in general.
If I could easily win either championship, then I should probably be looking at entering stocksport, BSS or similar.

[Ork12]

I think you should have a year off, sort everything out financially/physically/bikely. Do some trackdays n what not, then re-enter mini twins at the current level your at if thats possible.

But whatever you do I think you should only do because you enjoy it!

[G]

A year off I suspect would see me going backwards a bit, so I'd prefer to give it more of a push now, then fall from a higher level .

Suspect I wouldn't be re-entered into minitwins at the same level.


Bah, now trying to work out if I am swaying towards the 675s because I'm liking it more, or because I'm doing the typical argumentative, devil's advocate thingy that I do .

Or maybe you're all trying to use reverse psychology on me .


And yes - I'm only doing it because I enjoy it .

[Bendy]

[Dark]

I voted for the Triumphs.

I'm thinking do whatever you feel you'll get the most fun out of, you've pretty much said that cost is not the deciding factor so follow the route which will provide you with the riding experience that apeals the most to you.

It does sound like your talking yourself into the 675's though
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[G]

Cost for doing a whole season is not a deciding factor as they are quite close.

That I can miss some races and thus save money is of more importance.

I could do a minitwins round cheaper, for instance saving on tyres etc, however I've seen that to some degree this leads to frustration (and crashing?) as I can't push it as much, etc.

[Dark]

So its got more to do with how much time you want to dedicate to racing next year?
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[Bendy]

Didn't Tony say that you could sell your place if you needed to skip a round?

Probably be fairly popular nearer the end of the season as people want to try it before committing for '08.

Just need a decent contract on how much they owe if they cube it. And a good excuse prepared in case they go out and win on it.

[octane]

You're more or less (as I think I can tell) saying, that do you pump money in to it and see if I can really get somewhere with this, or do I stick with the SVs and maintain it as something fun to do on a weekend.

I think you should ask yourself one question:
Are you looking to have a career or some fun?

If you genuinely think you can make something from this, then more power to you, but if you don't, be honest with yourself, and spare yourself some fairly hefty debts.

Luck, either way.