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Will a GPZ500 head and Cams fit a KLE 500 engine

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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 15:57 - 09 Dec 2006    Post subject: Will a GPZ500 head and Cams fit a KLE 500 engine Reply with quote

Anybody know if there are any differences between the GPZ500 and the KLE500 engines? A friend of mine has fitted a GPZ head assembly onto his KLE but cant get it to run.The KLE was missing the head when he bought it

I havent had a look myself at it yet but he assures me that the valves have been lapped in and seal. The cam timing is correct according to the KLE manual as are the valve clearances. The inlet and exhaust cams are in the correct way round!! and it has a good spark and the timing is not adjustable but wont fire even with easystart sprayed into the bores.(I know bodger)

As i say i havent had a look at it myself yet but apparently when the motor is turned over there is little suction on the carb side and even seems to pump air out of the carb??? So I'm wondering did kawasaki do different configurations of this engine? i.e. are the cams wrong for this motor??

Any sugestions guys and girls?

Cheers Very Happy
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0ddball
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 09 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stinkwheel should know when he comes online. He's messed around with both engines to do something similar.
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 17:07 - 10 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

cool I'm glad someone might be able to help!!
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 10 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole top-end or just the head?

Assuming the whole top-end, I'm pretty sure the cam profile is different between the two. I'm fairly sure the ignition timing and advance curve is diffeent too.

That said, I would have expected the KLE ignition to be more retarded than the GPZ one which should make it easier to start if anything.

What I did is to fit an entire GPZ engine into a KLE (along with the CDI that went with it). What I can tell you is that the GPZ engine runs fine with the KLE carbs and airbox on so it definately isn't an issue with fueling.

My gut instinct is that it is not really anything to do with the actual mechanics of the swap. I would expect it to run. How well it would run is open to discussion but it should at least tick-over. I can't see there being much difference in the slow running setup on both engines (both bikes use the same diameter pilot jet and have identical inlet manifolds).

I reckon he is looking for an actual fault at this stage. Tuning and fiddling the setup may be necessary later but there shouldn't be anything that would actually stop it running altogether.

Eyeball the valve timing for a start. With the rocker cover off, turn the engine over by hand using a socket on the end of the crank. Watch the valves working as you do so and check they are actually opening and closing where they are supposed to for each part of the engine cycle. You might also want to remove the plugs so you can watch the piston reaching TDC. Remember, suck, squeeze, bang, blow.

Plug leads on the right way round? As I recall, you need to take the coils off to service the head. Have they been put back on right (and the right way round)?
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 22:27 - 10 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Iv'e heard that KLE and ER5 cams are the same profile, which is different to the GPZ's cams, but there are possibly other differences like valve and port sizes, and the compression ratio?
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 23:34 - 10 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the replys guys. The head was lost at a local engineering firm whilst it was having the exhaust studs drilled out and re tapped. A GPZ500 head and cams were fitted but as I said above it hasnt even the slightest attempt of firing..so looks like I'll drop a pencil down the plug holes and watch the valves open and close as I have a horrible feeling this cam might not be the same as the KLE one!!

I would at least have expected a pop or bang out of it as is should everything be ok!!

Thanks for taking the time to answer the post guys!!

I'll let you know how I get on!!!

Anybody got a spare KLE cam kicking about Shocked Shocked

Cheers

Rob Wink
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 23:35 - 10 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where you at? I have a whole, low mileage (less than 10k miles) KLE engine with a fucked gearbox.
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 10 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on Anglesey north Wales..Let me know how much youd be after for it...The last motor was bought from glasgow!! the guy who now owns the bike rode up on his Bergman scooter to pick it up...not bad for a 65 yr old bloke hehe. I havent had a look at it like i said but feel a little guilty as i said the motor should be the same but looks like i might have been wrong Sad Sad

if we ended up posting it I'd only need the cam or cam and head assembly.Would you be able to split to save on costs?

Cheers

Rob Wink
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:01 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in Cumbria so it would be a long way to come.

I would split it but I really don't have the time, my own KLE has been sat waiting for a new chain and sprockets for the last three weeks.

Give me 15-20 minutes and I'll go rake out my EX500 manual, see if it gives the crank, valve and ignition timing and I'll compare it to the KLE.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 00:45 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok. Both have a 180 degree crank.

Bore and stroke are identical. Pistons are identical.

Compression ratio: EX500: 10.8:1
KLE500: 9.8:1

My EX500 manual is less than helpful. What we need is someone who has a proper workshop manual for a GPZ500/EX500 so they can list the cam timing and ignition timing.

I'll give you what I have for the KLE:

Ignition timing: From 10° BTDC @1 300 r/min (rpm) to 35° BTDC
@5 000 r/min (rpm)

Valve timing:
Inlet: Open 27° BTDC. Close 47° ABDC. Duration 254°
Exhaust: Open 52° BBDC. Close 22° ATDC. Duration 254°

Realistically. As far as I can see, unless the ignition timing is vastly different, it should run. The bottom-ends appear to be all but identical so if you've transplanted the top-end complete, there is no good reason for it not to run.

If the ignition timing is vastly different (which I doubt, it'll be different but not enough to stop it running) it can most likely be moved by slotting some holes.

My experience has shown that most of the difference between the two machines performance is in the airbox and carb setup. The KLE essentially has a 'restricted' carb and a smaller airbox on which a GPZ engine runs just fine (14k miles and counting).

Actually. You want me to email you the proper KLE500 workshop manual? I have it as a PDF. PM me your email address if you want it.
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0ddball
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

GPZ500

Ignition timing: 10 degrees BTDC @ 1200rpm to 37.5 degrees BTDC @ 10,000rpm

There's no values for the cam timing. But the ignition is the same at the bottom end so that can't be the problem.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 01:17 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

There we go then. No good reason for it not to work.

Something must have been put together wrong or something else is broken.

Oh yeah. Valve clearances are identical too.

EDIT: I often find bikes can be a bit of a bugger to start after a rebuild. Once you are satisfied that the valve timing is set properly, it might be worth trying to start it by jumping it off a car. This seems to throw the engine over a lot more forcefully. Combined with judicious use of ether spray, you should get it fired up. After they've fired up once, they usually do so again.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 09:35 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Found my Kawasaki manual for the early GPZ500.

Ignition timing: From 10° BTDC @1 200 r/min (rpm) to 37.5° BTDC
@10 000 r/min (rpm)

Valve timing:
Inlet: Open 45° BTDC. Close 65° ABDC. Duration 290°
Exhaust: Open 70° BBDC. Close 40° ATDC. Duration 290°

A bit different, but to be honest I suspect it would only make a difference if the pistons and valves ran VERY close.

If it isn't just being a pain to star following the rebuild as Stinkwheel suggests then personal guess is that one of the cams is 180 degrees out.

All the best

Keith
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bladerunner
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

WOW Thanks guys that is some very useful info. It looks for sure that it has been assembled wrong. As I say I havent had a look at it yet but was starting to worry as I had told the owner that the EX500 Head and cam would work......I can now breathe a sigh of relief on that front and just get round to trying to fix it!!! I'm wondering if maybe he has set the cams up wrong as it appears to blow back through the carb rather than suck!!

Thanks for taking the time to find and post the information fellas May i wish you all the best for a fantastic christmas and I hope santa brings you what you want !!!!

I'll Let you know what i find when i get to take a look at the old KLE and see if I cant get the old dog running again!!

Cheers

Rob
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 12:23 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

As a rough guide, every other turn of the engine, as the No1 piston passes TDC, you should see the exhaust valve and the inlet valve both moving at the same time, this is the valve overlap as the exhaust is closing just after the end of the exhaust stroke and the inlet starts to open just before the start of the induction stroke.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:40 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow though. I hadn't realised there was such a big difference between the cams.

As I said earlier, the bike will definately run on those cams with the standard KLE carb setup but it makes me more tempted than ever to have a serious go at sorting out the carburettion on my KLE to suit the cam (and hence go faster).
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 11 Dec 2006    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Wow though. I hadn't realised there was such a big difference between the cams.


En450 cams are similar but slightly less extreme.

All the best

Keith
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Old Thread Alert!

There is a gap of 4 years, 106 days between these two posts...

dinomeat
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PostPosted: 00:26 - 27 Mar 2011    Post subject: gpz 500s timing Reply with quote

hi i just bought a 1993 gpz 500s the bloke said it was all jammed up ive had it all apart and found out it was just the starter motor jammed Very Happy , i took all the cylinder head off to find out if there was anything else wrong but all seemed ok so i put it all back together but im having trouble get any timing marks Confused any tips or info on how to time it all up would be a great help thank
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 09:00 - 27 Mar 2011    Post subject: Re: gpz 500s timing Reply with quote

dinomeat wrote:
hi i just bought a 1993 gpz 500s the bloke said it was all jammed up ive had it all apart and found out it was just the starter motor jammed Very Happy , i took all the cylinder head off to find out if there was anything else wrong but all seemed ok so i put it all back together but im having trouble get any timing marks Confused any tips or info on how to time it all up would be a great help thank


https://www.mediamolecule.com/images/uploads/wordpress/2009/06/back2future.jpg

Maybe you should start your own thread instead of resurrecting one from 2006.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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dinomeat
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 27 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

i never realised till i posted it lol
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 27 Mar 2011    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the GPZ500 engines, as for a 500cc IL2 they have fairly good tuning potential. I have heard of GPZ500's with flowed and skimmed heads, K&N filters and dynojet kit fitted, along with a well designed 2-1 pipe making around 68-70bhp. They can be taken out to over 600cc and with aftermarket cam's and flat slide carbs, id expect to see 75-80bhp.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 12 years, 335 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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