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tokarev
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 10 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paivi wrote:
In Germany, you're allowed to leave any unnecessary packaging in the shop; supermarkets often have huge bins after the tills. For example, if you buy a box of cereals, you leave the cardboard box behind.


Sounds interesting. It probably will not be that long before one of the supermarket chains in the U.K. does something similar to that to try to improve their "green" image in the hope of winning more customers.

But if it increases recycling and decreases the amount of rubbish we turn out then it is all good.
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mr_pete
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PostPosted: 22:01 - 10 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

I lived out in Germany for a year, and it's a definite culture shock when you go out there.

For starters, ALL households have (or had!) several bins - one for metal, one for glass, one for food/bio stuff, and one for everything else - although most had a box for paper too.

Failing to sort rubbish is illegal, end of chat. So it's kind of "built in" now - and the infrastructure is there to deal with it. It's not that they don't produce as much waste as us, it's just that they deal with it better.

F'rinstance, Maccy D's had the three bins, and served most foods in paper, not polystyrene, and everyone sorted. Then (I'm sad to say) us English arrived in the town, and 2 months later, the bins had gone. I sorted, but a lot of others didn't, and putting food in the glass bin etc doesn't help.

The Germans are fastidious planners, and think ahead - not many high rises (most live in flats/apartments a coupla storeys high) so house prices are nasty, but it's not madly built "up", recycling is law, and nationwide, and people over there respect the law and the country.....

Here, less so...
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Dan 4RR
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PostPosted: 22:02 - 10 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

IIRC, I was watching Trevor Mcdonals 'Tonight' show about waste/recycling, etc. One of the woman they interviewed claimed that the UK was years behind other countries within mainland Europe in regards to waste control and recycle technology. Mainly Germany.
I guess the UK makes more because were all a bunch of fat slobs who eat from microwave meals and can't be bothered to recycle. Laughing
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RickHolt
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PostPosted: 22:05 - 10 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hasn't there just been a law brought in to force companies to take some responsibility for recycling/disposing old products? Not sure which paper I read it in, but sounds like a good idea.

If you go and buy a new toaster for example, they have to take your old one if you want them to.

Of course the cost will be passed on to us anyway. Always is.

I'm all for recycling, seems a waste to be burying things that could be useful. But I don't believe the whole issue of global warming, I've not seen any proof that it's abnormal.

Rick.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 02:03 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

RickHolt wrote:
But I don't believe the whole issue of global warming, I've not seen any proof that it's abnormal.

Rick.


We have just had the warmest year since records began.

The polar ice caps are melting
Glaciers are dissapearing

these things have been around for thousands of years, and just by magic , the industrial revolution starts, and shortly afterwards the earth starts heating up.

Just look at the evidence.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 02:36 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

froggeh wrote:
We have just had the warmest year since records began.


We have 27 years of accurate global temperature measurements, and by those measurements 1998 was warmer. Which particular measurements is that "warmest year" based on?

froggeh wrote:
The polar ice caps are melting
Glaciers are dissapearing


They are changing. What is happening depends who you ask. Bits disappear. Bits thin. Bits also appear and bits also thicken.

froggeh wrote:
these things have been around for thousands of years, and just by magic , the industrial revolution starts, and shortly afterwards the earth starts heating up.


Industrial revolution happened to start just as we were coming out of what was known as the little ice age. When the Thames froze in winter. A few hundred years before that there was the medieval warm period. When Greenland was warm enough for the Vikings to settle there.

Does climate change? Yes. Is it changing now? Probably, but how much is under dispute. Is this due to an increase in CO2 levels? Also possible, but ice cores from previous times have also shown raised CO2 levels when temperatures have risen, but the CO2 levels have trailed the rise in temperature.

There are massive numbers of unknowns, and vested interests on both sides trying to infuence views.

Remember that about 3% of CO2 emissions are man made. The other 97% are natural.

All the best

Keith
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 10:25 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
froggeh wrote:
We have just had the warmest year since records began.


We have 27 years of accurate global temperature measurements, and by those measurements 1998 was warmer. Which particular measurements is that "warmest year" based on?

froggeh wrote:
The polar ice caps are melting
Glaciers are dissapearing


They are changing. What is happening depends who you ask. Bits disappear. Bits thin. Bits also appear and bits also thicken.

froggeh wrote:
these things have been around for thousands of years, and just by magic , the industrial revolution starts, and shortly afterwards the earth starts heating up.


Industrial revolution happened to start just as we were coming out of what was known as the little ice age. When the Thames froze in winter. A few hundred years before that there was the medieval warm period. When Greenland was warm enough for the Vikings to settle there.

Does climate change? Yes. Is it changing now? Probably, but how much is under dispute. Is this due to an increase in CO2 levels? Also possible, but ice cores from previous times have also shown raised CO2 levels when temperatures have risen, but the CO2 levels have trailed the rise in temperature.

There are massive numbers of unknowns, and vested interests on both sides trying to infuence views.

Remember that about 3% of CO2 emissions are man made. The other 97% are natural.

All the best

Keith



Much that I wish you were right, I'm afraid the evidence is too strong to deny Global warming now.
The Little Ice Age (and the medieval warm period) certainly muddy the data, but don't change the fact that human beings are responsible for a portion of the earths current increasing temperatures.

Most scientists now go along with it.

"The debate about whether there is a global warming signal now is over, at least for rational people," said Tim Barnett, of the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla, California. "The models got it right. If a politician stands up and says the uncertainty is too great to believe these models, that is no longer tenable."
https://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-1489955,00.html


I tend to agree with this. In fact I'd regard global warming as a strong or stronger theory as evolution.
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JonB
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PostPosted: 10:33 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, Global Warming is government spin to induce more taxes and further misery for it's citizens.

It was only the other day in an interview that OUR prime minister, Tony Blair conceded that reducing long haul flights is not necessary as he was picked up on it after his recent holiday to Florida.

YES, our resources are running out, but with 50 years tops, of records, there is no conclusive evidence that we are killing this planet.
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a per passenger per mile basis a 747 is more economical than a Ford Fiesta.
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zaknafien




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PostPosted: 12:35 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone jumped on the 'there's no argument about it anymore!' bandwagon didn't they.
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eh wha? Neutral
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 13:45 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone else jumped on the "Head in the sand" bandwagon didn't they?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

froggeh wrote:
Someone else jumped on the "Head in the sand" bandwagon didn't they?


so? , what you going to do about it? , Newsnight's ethical man did the following:

Got rid of car for bicycle
recycled everything
bought local produce
used sweaters and clothing instead of heating
took cold showers
didn't take holidays period
turned everything off standby
turned to a green energy supplier (false carbon economy)
changed all over to energy saving bulbs
turned off lights when no needed

and only saved 20% of his carbon output.

the planet is doomed , doomed I tells ya , so we might as well enjoy it while it lasts ,

and yes it is just another reason to boost taxes even higher even though taxes have never been as high since 1968, UK alone can't do anything UK =2% world carbon emissions , we go down to zero ie UK turns to stone age actually worse than stone age since cavemen had fires , we make no difference.

China/India have a voracious appetite for energy , and build more coal powerstations than you can imagine = we can't do a thing

Still I'd like to see you play your part Sunday! , try outride me without petrol! go on!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:25 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

froggeh wrote:
Someone else jumped on the "Head in the sand" bandwagon didn't they?



to boot , when we utterly ruin the earth , we leave it to people like YOUR son to clean it all up / live with the mess Very Happy
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 15:14 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
the planet is doomed , doomed I tells ya , so we might as well enjoy it while it lasts


The planet will be fine. It might have to kill all humans off in order to survive but it'll do that if it needs to. Some kind of disaster will happen, most life will die, the planet will recover in a staggeringly short time (geologically speaking) and a whole plethora of new lifeforms will evolve.

When people say they are concerned about "the planet" that's not strictly the case; they're concerned about the human race. We're just a species of animal. Sooner or later we will cease to exist. The planet will live on. Whether or not we contribute to our own extinction is irrelevant, really.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:

Still I'd like to see you play your part Sunday! , try outride me without petrol! go on!


Heh. You know I can't outrun you anyway unless its fairly straight.

Just hope it's not raining.
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strawberry
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
When people say they are concerned about "the planet" that's not strictly the case; they're concerned about the human race.


Might be the case for some people but personally I care more about the planet and its non-human inhabitants (except maybe slugs because wtf are they about?) than I do it's human inhabitants.

I'm sure she will survive on some level but that doesn't mean I'm happy to see humankind hurting her in their own quest for profit and a better lifestyle than their neighbours.
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froggeh
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PostPosted: 15:49 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Itchy wrote:
the planet is doomed , doomed I tells ya , so we might as well enjoy it while it lasts


The planet will be fine. It might have to kill all humans off in order to survive but it'll do that if it needs to. Some kind of disaster will happen, most life will die, the planet will recover in a staggeringly short time (geologically speaking) and a whole plethora of new lifeforms will evolve.

When people say they are concerned about "the planet" that's not strictly the case; they're concerned about the human race. We're just a species of animal. Sooner or later we will cease to exist. The planet will live on. Whether or not we contribute to our own extinction is irrelevant, really.


I agree partly with this, but I doubt we will ever cease to exist. Even if the world gets almost unbearable, we will survive to some extent. And eventually I'm sure we will spread to other planets...
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

strawberry wrote:
I'm sure she will survive on some level but that doesn't mean I'm happy to see humankind hurting her in their own quest for profit and a better lifestyle than their neighbours.


It's only natural. We are a species of animal and this is what we are doing. We're not necessarily hurting the planet, but we might be changing it. Cows eat grass and fart a lot. That could be argued to be hurting the planet. We're just two species of animal going about our business.

Any animal that thrives in a certain environment changes that environment. Those environmental changes usually have the effect of reining in the success of that species. Consider some frogs that stumble across an island full of flies. They will thrive until they eat almost all the flies and then most of them will starve. Eventually, an equilibrium will be created where there are enough flies to feed the frogs and few enough frogs to allow the flies to keep breeding.

Question is, how many of us "frogs" have to die in order to meet some sort of equilibrium with our environment. It could be all of us - though in the short to medium term I tend to agree with Froggeh - some of us will live and strike a balance with the environment.
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Dan 4RR
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

On ITV last night they said that places like Scandinavian countries would see and increase of 1metre in water levels. Places like the Alps would melt, with a knock on effect for the economy and places like southern Spain would see droughts,heatwaves, crops and wildlife wouldn't be able to cope. Confused Not till a few more years though Wink

For now, I'll carry on enjoying life riding my bikes, fuck the planet, my grankids can deal with it Laughing
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan 4RR wrote:
Places like the Alps would melt, with a knock on effect for the economy


Melting mountains?! They're made of rock! Damn, they're expecting it to get hot.
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Dan 4RR
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PostPosted: 16:33 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
Dan 4RR wrote:
Places like the Alps would melt, with a knock on effect for the economy


Melting mountains?! They're made of rock! Damn, they're expecting it to get hot.
Yup, mountain ranges are gonna start melting Razz Laughing
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strawberry
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
It's only natural. We are a species of animal and this is what we are doing. We're not necessarily hurting the planet, but we might be changing it. Cows eat grass and fart a lot. That could be argued to be hurting the planet. We're just two species of animal going about our business.


I'm not sure the argument that 'it's only natural' is a good one to fall back on. It may be natural for humankind to indulge in many different behaviours but that doesn't mean they are generally encouraged or even ignored. There are laws to prohibit all sorts of behaviours that could be seen as 'natural' because they are also seen by some as being detrimental to the overall health and functioning of societies.

Incidentally, when I say hurting her I say it to include making her angry etc. She fights back and she will invariably win if those who depend on her for life fail to respect her.
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

strawberry wrote:
I'm not sure the argument that 'it's only natural' is a good one to fall back on. It may be natural for humankind to indulge in many different behaviours but that doesn't mean they are generally encouraged or even ignored. There are laws to prohibit all sorts of behaviours that could be seen as 'natural' because they are also seen by some as being detrimental to the overall health and functioning of societies.

Incidentally, when I say hurting her I say it to include making her angry etc. She fights back and she will invariably win if those who depend on her for life fail to respect her.


I'm not trying to make an argument here. I'm not trying to say whether or not we really are harming the planet or whether or not what we may be doing to it is wrong. I'm just being pragmatic. This is something that's happened to species of animals since the dawn of time. They thrive in an environment and then the environment turns on them.

Ever since the dark ages we have been the frogs that have found the island of flies. We have thrived in our environment and sooner or later we're going to use up all it's got and then we'll be in trouble. There are six billion of us and we all like cars and TV and central heating and cheap food. We are consuming faster than the environment can provide and sooner or later we will come a cropper as a result of that. Going green now might slightly reduce the number of us who have to die in order to reach some sort of balance with the world when it turns on us, but nothing more.

I say "us" meaning "humans". We, personally, will probably be long gone by then.

Whatever happens though, the planet itself will be fine. It's a lump of iron flying through space. It can cope.
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strawberry
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PostPosted: 17:04 - 11 Jan 2007    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
I'm not trying to make an argument here.


I'm not saying you are Smile

I'm just saying that that particular argument doesn't hold water for me > <
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