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iCraig
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PostPosted: 22:03 - 28 Mar 2008    Post subject: LPG? Reply with quote

Following on from the performance diesel thread, I have been thinking of either converting my current car to LPG or buying an already converted one!

As petrol prices seem to be going sky high! Does anyone have experience of it? What its like, does it affect perfomance that much? etc

Cheers

Craig
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Chriss
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 28 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny enough, my parents used to have a Nissan Almera (Sp?) that was converted. Makes hardly any real world difference really performance wise apparently, just the initial cost (they paid £1800 for the conversion) that puts me off.

Get a test drive would be my suggestion. Smile Not sure if some cars take to it better.
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nick606
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PostPosted: 23:56 - 28 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got told that if your in a accident in a lpg car firemen wouldn't come and cut you out as its to dangerous as it could go up any second. Neutral
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Ichy
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PostPosted: 00:03 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd be surprised if that was true, wouldn't even be allowed on the road if that was the case.


I did my own conversion on my Land Rover station wagon. One large tank for LPG, two small for petrol. MPG was about the same and it made absolutely no difference to performance. Bit of a pain to get started through so I used to switch to petrol to get going.
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iCraig
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PostPosted: 00:04 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

nick606 wrote:
I got told that if your in a accident in a lpg car firemen wouldn't come and cut you out as its to dangerous as it could go up any second. Neutral


Well thats bullshit, as it wouldn't be legal on UK roads if it were that dangerous.

Besides its compressed and liquid till it gets to certain temp, hence the L in LPG, its about as volatile as petrol!
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nick606
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PostPosted: 00:06 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well thats what a guy said who came in to talk about engines on my course
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10 pence Short
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PostPosted: 00:31 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not a big fan of it. The cheaper systems seem to have problems with the gas igniting in the intake pipes blowing them to bits. Sometimes there is even specific one-way valves to help stop this and they don't always work.

As said they don't like to start on Gas, Usually start on petrol and switch either automatically or manually. Filling stations not always available.

Some Manufacturers factory fit it, can't complain with those,
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iCraig
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PostPosted: 00:41 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

10 pence Short wrote:
Not a big fan of it. The cheaper systems seem to have problems with the gas igniting in the intake pipes blowing them to bits. Sometimes there is even specific one-way valves to help stop this and they don't always work.

As said they don't like to start on Gas, Usually start on petrol and switch either automatically or manually. Filling stations not always available.

Some Manufacturers factory fit it, can't complain with those,


Car am looking at is a Volvo S40 Bi-Fuel which is factory fitted. And I have 3 filling stations for LPG near me too!
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Phoenix
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PostPosted: 02:22 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you want one for a 6-8cylinder car I know someone selling one for £375, new and unfitted, just minus the tank and copper piping.
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colin1
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PostPosted: 02:24 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

nick606 wrote:
Well thats what a guy said who came in to talk about engines on my course


well u still believed him

picture the scene you are in a mangled wreck of a car after an accident, the fire brigade have arrived

do you really think they would come over and say, "excuse me sir, but is this an lpg car ? cos if it is, we'll be on our way"

the only way they would know it was lpg would be if you were to tell them

if anything lpg containters are more secure than a petrol tank as they are pressurised so have to be stronger
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nick606
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PostPosted: 02:33 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

No put they have stickers on them don't they so people know. Why are they not allowed in tunnels if there more secure colin ?

And to be honest i do believe him because he came in talking about fuels and engine and obviously knows his shit and has know reason to lie.

He said he got told at a presentation some firefighters did to show some joyriders. He then explained what firefighter do at a accident and so on.

Maybe its something to look up and if im wrong ill hold my hands up. Rolling Eyes
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colin1
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PostPosted: 02:39 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

well ive never seen an lpg sticker on a car, but if you ever want to buy an lpg car and stick a sticker on it to warn firemen not to save you, thats fine by me

if i ever buy an lpg car, and there is an lpg sticker on it, i will remember this conversation, and remove the sticker, just in case it stops firemen trying to save me in the event of an accident.
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iCraig
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenix wrote:
If you want one for a 6-8cylinder car I know someone selling one for £375, new and unfitted, just minus the tank and copper piping.


Car I'll be getting will either have 4 or 5 cylinders! Laughing
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WildGoose
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the idea, because LPG is less efficient than petrol, we should not be embracing anything if it is less efficient than current systems, I feel. That is simply going for the temporary solution whilst there is a big push on environment related crap.

So, as soon as it becomes popular, and significant loss is being made by the govt in revenue, they will just tax the arse out of it like everything else. And your benefits in congestion charging zones will also be dropped.

I toyed with the idea for a while, but didn't like its lack of availibility, you can't roll onto a forecourt on fumes and /know/ you will be able to fill up.

Since no car should be advertised as Green in my eyes (and those of many others) because they all do some harm, just some less than others.

Because the cost savings aren't significant enough as people would have you believe.. I just say bollocks to it, until they sort alternative transport out I will drive what I like.

Totally unrelated...
London buses are now carrying adverts about more fuel efficient driving, and how it can save you an average of something like £120 quid a year Laughing , obviously at the expense of enjoying your driving experience. What a load of old nonsense.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

nick606 wrote:


Well thats what a guy said who came in to talk about engines on my course



Then you need to go somewhere that does courses where people know what they are talking about.

LPG tanks have pressure release valves so pressure rises they bleed off LPG in a controlled manner.

If you were to spray LPG straight onto a fire it wouldn't cause a flame or flare up. In fact it would likely put the fire out.

Reason is it takes heat from the air to turn into a gas causing the air temperature to drop considerably. People who use LPG fired space heaters notice this when the bottom of the cylinder gets covered with Ice.

Endothermic reaction iirc.

To get around this LPG installations use a vapouriser connected to the coolant system of the vehicle so they can take heat from there instead of the air so as to stop the potential for carb icing or its equivalent.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

WildGoose wrote:


I don't like the idea, because LPG is less efficient than petrol, we should not be embracing anything if it is less efficient than current systems, I feel. That is simply going for the temporary solution whilst there is a big push on environment related crap.



So what you are suggesting is that we just use up only one natural resource instead of sharing the burden among many?

WildGoose wrote:


So, as soon as it becomes popular, and significant loss is being made by the govt in revenue, they will just tax the arse out of it like everything else. And your benefits in congestion charging zones will also be dropped.



But until they do why not use it?

WildGoose wrote:


I toyed with the idea for a while, but didn't like its lack of availibility, you can't roll onto a forecourt on fumes and /know/ you will be able to fill up.



Which is why virtually all systems are dual fuel and retain the original fuel tank.

A single 70 litre tank in the boot would give you over 500miles in range ON TOP of the range from your standard tank.

WildGoose wrote:


Since no car should be advertised as Green in my eyes (and those of many others) because they all do some harm, just some less than others.



And yet LPG is a by product of the petroleum industry and burns clean so is better than petrol.

WildGoose wrote:


Because the cost savings aren't significant enough as people would have you believe.. I just say bollocks to it, until they sort alternative transport out I will drive what I like.



But they are enough and as petrol prices continue to rise becomes better.
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WildGoose
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So what you are suggesting is that we just use up only one natural resource instead of sharing the burden among many?


not at all, invest the time and money wasted on LPG, into better more efficient methods of power for the car

Quote:
But until they do why not use it?


Because of the high cost or buying an LPG car, or converting it (assuming you dont carry out the work yourself, which may well be cheaper) just for the benefits to be null a few years down the line

Quote:
Which is why virtually all systems are dual fuel and retain the original fuel tank.

A single 70 litre tank in the boot would give you over 500miles in range ON TOP of the range from your standard tank.


Same could be said of fitting a second large petrol tank... invalid point imo, I don't want to have to visit several stations to fill up the car, its already enough of a PITA to simply fill up a car as it is, as more and more stations become mini supermarkets, the queue gets longer and the staff become less good at their job (off topic)

Quote:
And yet LPG is a by product of the petroleum industry and burns clean so is better than petrol.


Better than petrol, but not by a lot in real terms when you look into the figures, in terms of percentages I found they weren't far apart. Was referring more specifically to the impact of car production, in reference to no car being green, regardless of the fuel used, all cars have to be produced by an industrial process that is inherently bad for the environment, as well as the waste at the end of the cars use.

Quote:
But they are enough and as petrol prices continue to rise becomes better.


I won't deny its appealing which is why i considered it for a while, but the rising cost of petrol (diesel specically for me) isn't acceptable, and disregarding the rising cost of crude oil, there is no reason we should be paying so much.

I could run on vegetable oil or add acetone to my fuel to get vastly cheaper fuel or better mileage respectively, but both of these will damage my particular engine (/fuel pump) in the long term (Transit 2.5DI)
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WildGoose
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guy at work, sold his petrol car to get an LPG, some vauxhall thing, it allows him to park outside work without paying the congestion charge (our building is 500yds inside the north west corner of the zone at the harrow road/ladbroke grove sainsburys anomaly.

He has the option of taking a van home, on the companys diesel, but prefers to park outside, do his job, go home in his own car and leave work behind, he lives in Brixton.

If work removed the option of taking the motors home, thus eliminating 90% of my commuting costs, I would consider an LPG or similar more seriously (or more realistically find a job closer to home).

But at the moment, my personal mileage doesn't justify it as much as it would for some.
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Faraz
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PostPosted: 17:42 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

My parents have had loads of cars on LPG, Right now its a 2.4 Accord Executive. Does not affect the performance of the car and sounds exactly the same as petrol.

Faraz.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 29 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

WildGoose wrote:
not at all, invest the time and money wasted on LPG, into better more efficient methods of power for the car


LPG has been used for decades in different countries, just no reason until recently to use it in the UK. So no money is wasted on LPG development, merely some people can spend a bit on a conversion if it will save them money in the long term.

WildGoose wrote:
Because of the high cost or buying an LPG car, or converting it (assuming you dont carry out the work yourself, which may well be cheaper) just for the benefits to be null a few years down the line


Compared to the costs of depreciation for almost any new car, the extra cost of conversion / buying a dual fuel car is nominal.

WildGoose wrote:
Was referring more specifically to the impact of car production, in reference to no car being green, regardless of the fuel used, all cars have to be produced by an industrial process that is inherently bad for the environment, as well as the waste at the end of the cars use.


True, and exactly the same applies to any vehicle (including buses and trains), and pretty much anything humans use. Best solution to that is to make the things last longer, but the "greens" instead have a short term vision and push for the early replacement of perfectly servicable vehicles for some nominal saving in day to day useage impact.

All the best

Keith
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lukamon
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PostPosted: 01:59 - 30 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

theres no reason not to do it really, if you are going to keep the car for a long time. a bloke at work told me a company he used to drive for used 1.6 lpg astras, from buying them new to selling, they did around 200 - 250k miles. 225,000 miles at 30mpg, assuming lpg is 50p and petrol 100p, saves you £16,875 over the life of the car, or £15,375 including conversion.

also, i saw a renault laguna the other day with one of the green square ompressed gas stickers on the back, pretty sure that was LPG.
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19van71
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PostPosted: 02:19 - 30 Mar 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

nick606 wrote:
I got told that if your in a accident in a lpg car firemen wouldn't come and cut you out as its to dangerous as it could go up any second. Neutral

Ha Ha!!!!

And........If you do fit it, you have to have a man running infront of your car holding a fire extinguisher and paint your car flourescent green, and have 65 amber flashing lights attached to the roof!! and Hold a Hazmat license too...... Laughing Wink
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