Warming a bike up

[Wave2k]

Ive been reading the Aprilia user manual, and i found this

[MarJay]

[L3G3ND_MTX]

Wave you are correct there, also people dont warm them up by just idleing them because it fowls spark plugs quickly, they always say when your running it in to idle it up to temp but i didnt i just let it warm a little bit while i put helmet on done up jacket etc. then i would ride off and keep it at v.low revs till it warmed up

[loply]

It would take a long time to reach operatng temp at idle speeds.

Letting an engine idle for that long won't be good.

Fouling of spark plugs and heating of coolant would be likely issues.

Let it idle till it's not cold, then ride it till it's fully warm.
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Yamaha SZR660 Caution to the wind, the throttle pinned!

[McJamweasel]

Why bother to let it warm up at all? Just get on the bloody thing and ride it steady until its up to temperature. Don't forget that it's not just the engine/oil that needs warming, its the gearbox/wheel bearings, tyres, brakes etc. etc.
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BCF: Be yourself, just don't be an arse.

[Dom_]

I've never warmed a bike up, just get on and go. Keep it at part throttle and low revs until up to full temp.

[Wave2k]

I know Ducatis need to be left at idle for 90 seconds, because oil doesnt sit in and around the valves like a jap bike.
Also takes that time to get the oil up to the head.
Desmo valves an all that.
Can lead to rocker deteriation apparently.
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Ducati 1299 Panigale
2009 Corvette C6 z51
RS125->CBR400->RXS100->GSXR750K2->Ducati749S->CBR600RR5->TL1000R->DRz400->RSVR1000->Honda VTR SP1->CBR400->GSXR1000K6->Honda H100->CBR600RR3->Ducati1299

[phil2alp]

I thought you shouldn't let a bike warm up by letting it idle because the rich fuel mixture burns off the oil in the cylinder barrels leading eventually to premature wear. I'm not sure if this applies to modern bikes with fuel injection and modern ecu wizardry. I expect it probably does.

[Barry_M2]

[The Tot]

Dave, do you reckon it could be because the aprilia has a dry sump which can explain the reasoning? I'm not sure of the implications of leaving a dry sumped motor idling without no load attached to the gearbox?

I generally ride off after the engine can idle at 2k after starting it up with the choke and ride slowly and under 5k.

I'd say Dry Sump, hence why aprilia put that in the manual?
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The Tot 2019 Z1000SX - 2007 R1
Never argue with autism

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

I used to let mine warm up to around 40ish(the time it took me to put in my ear plugs and get my helmet on) then just take it steady until it was at normal temp.
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[short1uk]

I have been getting mine out the shed over winter and letting it run for say 30 mins or so just in the back yard.

Wondered why there hardly any oil left when i check it the other day must have been burning it off or something?

I just wanted to keep it running over winter, I left it for 3 months once and it didnt wanna start took ages and sounded like a bag of bolts, starting it every few weeks seems to keep it sweet.

Is this wrong then? (its on an optimate to keep the battery going before anyone says - and yes i unplug it before i start it etc)

C

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

[short1uk]

I couldnt it was on a sorn. But this year I will as the tax only runs out next April

(And i couldnt fit in my bike gear after the xmas meal hee hee)

[njd27]

Tips for storing bike for 2-3 months:

a. Fill the tank right up, so there's no air in it and the petrol finds it more difficult to go off
b. Drain the carbs if it has them
c. leave on optimate to keep battery healthy
d. Leave on centre stand to try and avoid flat spots in the tyres

Unless the bike is completely warmed up (eg go for a 30 minute blast) then starting it at all will just speed up corrosion due to the condensation. You do better not to start it at all.

[MarJay]

[short1uk]

right tips noted for next winter, although I aim to do lots more riding this winter. Think I went a bit chicken after my accident tbh

Catherine

[Wave2k]

[Fastkwak]

A mate of mine who is a car MOT inspector reckons you shouldnt let anything with a CAT fitted idle for any significant amount of time as the Cat only operates correctly at optimum temp and reaches it bloody quickly as soon as you are driving but on idle it will never get there so gets swamped by the very emisions its meant to be burning and at 250 quid a shot and upwards its a pretty expensive mistake come MOT time when you cant pass the emmisions test.

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Kiss my ASS im gone. current ZX12R previous ZZR1100,Gpz1100 uni,GT750,VT500,CX500
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[_Will_]

[ms51ves3]

[MarJay]

[Barry_M2]

[Wave2k]

I think what he is trying to say that a Ducati left over time, will take 90 seconds for a good amount of oil to reach and properly lubricate.

Its mainly about Rocker wear and tear, i took out the part about the oil and valves

Rockers, who needs 'em

An old fashioned way of opening valves (and an even more unusual way of closing them.)? sure, but if you own a Ducati you own a whole bunch of them….

Ducati's can suffer rocker failure; the damage usually shows itself as losing the chrome facing where the cam contacts it. It happens on racebikes but it is much more common on road bikes, ones used for lots of short trips. Much has been written on the subject; there are many different theories, and one of the main ones could easily be a bad batch of chroming, the problem seems more apparent in the higher revving 748's. I detect a large amount of frustration amongst Ducati owners as to the possible causes of the problem and the best resolution.

First we have to assume the valve clearances are within tolerance, if the valves are too tight, or very loose the chrome is going to get a very bad time. But even if everything is set up well you can still lose chrome. We have a few ideas on this and if you can bear with us we would like to run through them with you.

Now you will have to bear with us on this 'cos first we have to tell to tell a little story.

We race(d) Supermono's, these bikes (see Supermono tech) are one cylinder off the basic Quattro Valvole Ducati engine. There are a few other differences, dry alternator, plain main bearings (much stronger!!), and very important for the purposes of this story, a water pump hung off the end of the exhaust cam. One major similarity is that the external oil feed is the same except the 'rear cylinder' rocker oil feed looks after the balancer mechanism instead.

The exhaust cam on a Supermono is the same grind as a Corsa or SP (916SP); but it is shortened by about 10m on the end opposite the cam belt. The shortened end has a slot milled in it to take the water pump impeller drive (the water pump impeller is the same basic piece as the 916 but the shaft is half the length). The slot gets badly hammered in regular use and the cam needs careful treatment, but regardless it has a limited life (when Ducati finally make the 'street' Supermono I trust they will sort this little foible out).

We had Mark Fox's Supermono in for a 102mm piston kit and a general uprate of the cylinder head; we rebuilt the head, set it all up, and got ready to run it. With no starter we pushed it down the road, Mono's are pigs to start when they are cold and this one was no exception, three goes and 100 yards later it ran; we turned it round and walked it back up the street to the workshop. We were blipping it to keep it running, 1500 /2000 rpm ish, the walk back took a minute, finding and fitting the stand took another 30 seconds; then the geyser of oil erupted from the side of the cylinder head.

It wrecked the belt of course, oil was everywhere. It transpires that the other thing that is different about a Supermono exhaust cam is that it is delivered without the little blanking plug in the centre of the cam wheel end that stops the oil feed to the cams exiting straight out the other end of the cam. As far as I am aware this plug is fitted as standard in every other factory Ducati cam. The important thing is that the oil took 90 seconds, at least, to get to the valve gear! We cleaned the bike and fitted a plug in the oilway and it ran perfectly; we dump loads of oil on the cams when we build a cylinder head so there was no other problem.

Now lets think about this, a typical Japanese DOHC engine will have nice little buckets over the valves; a pool of oil sits in a pocket above the bucket and the cam runs directly in the pool, oil is therefore present from the first second of running. With a Ducati Quattro Valvole, especially after it has sat around for a while, oil can take up to 90 seconds to arrive. The Ducati oil delivery system has no one way valve so as the bike sits unused the oil retreats slowly to the sump. When you start the engine the oil has to come all the way back up the long oil lines, it is not going to get there appreciably quicker if you rev it. The cams will not notice any difference if you are sitting 'off load' or are trying to ride it; but you do have some choices that will make life easier for the valve gear.

The first choice is the number of revs the engine suffers while the rockers wait for their oil supply. The engine can tick over at 1200 rpm and bash the rocker surface 900 times in 90 seconds while the oil comes up. Or you can run it at 4000 rpm; and the rockers will get bashed 3000 times, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out that the cam follower is going to prefer the lesser of the two evils. (as an aside when I warm up my 'street' ST4 it always seems to get to about 90 seconds before the flashing 'LO' sign on the digital display is replaced with a temperature reading, I doubt it is a coincidence).

The second choice is the oil you use. Ducati recommend Shell Advance Ultra, we recommend Rock Oil Racing Synthesis4, others talk about Motul 2000 and there are adherents to AGIP 4t Super Racing. All of these are thickish 15/50 or 20/50 racing spec fully synthetic oils. All have very high shear strengths (Cst's of 16 and above) and take time getting around the engine when it is first started, but they all leave a thick film of oil on everything so that weeks later when the engine is next started, there will be some oil already there. We take apart engines that have not been run for weeks and, when they have been run on a good oil, we find a thick film of oil clinging to the rockers. It is not any where as good as a generous fresh supply but it is a lot better than a thin film that falls away from the mating surfaces as soon as the engine is stopped. Mineral or thin 5w40 or 10w40 oils have their place, but not in a Ducati engine. (For a little more on this see Supermono tech).

With any theory there is usually a proof, and a few exceptions. Most of the rockers we replace are on the rear cylinder if only a few have gone, the ones next to the belt (ie. furthest away from the oil feed) are usually worst. The front cylinder exhaust cam is usually fairly immune because a pool of oil collects in the rocker box and allows the cam some initial lubrication. As we have noted before we also have to accept that some pieces of hard chroming are better quality than others, there is always the chance of the proverbial bad batch.

You still think that the rocker should handle a few seconds of abuse every morning? Well you are forgetting why you bought a Ducati, you bought an engine with a broad spread of power and tremendous grunt, yet still with good peak power. The key to this type of power is that Ducati Unique Selling Point; Desmodromic valve actuation. Desmo means that more valve time area is available within a given set of cam timings, the valve is accelerated from rest to full open, and back again far quicker than with an equivalent valve spring engine. There is a correspondingly harder thwack on the rocker (and the valve collets) each time this happens.

Now let us consider in a little more detail what's actually happening, we believe that most street motor problems are start-up related. These problems can be addressed mostly with careful use and good oil. In extreme use, racing for instance, with regular trips over 12,000 rpm there can still be problems. We should consider more of what is actually happening here. Chrome looks flat and polished; it is electrically bonded to the surface of the rocker. The cam (on street) is covered in a black coating from the hardening it receives after machining. But it is not really this simple, the surface of both rocker and cam is in fact covered with microscopic imperfections, think of it as loads of valleys and mountain peaks.

As wear takes place peaks get knocked and shear off, unfortunately the whole side of the 'mountain' also comes away so a new peak and deeper valley is also created; with good oil this happens slowly, in cases of very high revs, incorrect valve clearances or with no or incorrect oil this happens quickly. In very extreme cases the chrome is shattered away from the rocker surface. Other than trying to make sure the valve gear gets correctly lubricated we modify the working surfaces by SuPerTeching them. We also do the gearbox, for exactly the same reasons, gear changing is slicker and lighter, bits last longer and power sapping friction is reduced.

SuPerTech ensures that all the surface peaks are removed, without creating new valleys; a flatter surface allows a better and stronger oil film, the oil can do its job and it takes far more abuse to erode the surface. Used on highly stressed parts it eliminates the ability of the peaks and valleys to act as though they are two pieces of Velcro being dragged across each other, the rate of erosion is much reduced.

We believe SuPerTech is a very valuable addition to the fight to reduce wear on highly stressed parts, the flatter surface also allows a better quality oil film to reduce frictional power losses. We have used it for three years now and we consistently see our bikes at the top of the top speed charts. With some of our results as a private team going against the works boys, I can only believe SuPerTech does its bit for the machines performance.

SuPerTech is at its best used on new parts, and it doesn't fix things that are already broken, but it can be used on good condition used parts.

So, to summarise, in no particular order;

1) Make sure the valve clearance are acceptable, too tight is death.

2) Give the oil time to get to the rockers every time you start the engine, call it warming up or whatever, but keep the revs down at tickover for at least the first 90 seconds of running.

3) Use good quality, high shear strength (Cst 16+) fully synthetic oil.

4) SuPerTech all the high stress parts in your engine

Most importantly don't let all this spoil you enjoyment of one of the best makes of bike on the planet, just cut them a little slack, if you wanted something as characterless and perfect as a fridge you would have bought a Honda!
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Ducati 1299 Panigale
2009 Corvette C6 z51
RS125->CBR400->RXS100->GSXR750K2->Ducati749S->CBR600RR5->TL1000R->DRz400->RSVR1000->Honda VTR SP1->CBR400->GSXR1000K6->Honda H100->CBR600RR3->Ducati1299

[DynamiteBoy]

I just tend to wait for the rev's to drop to normal idle (automatic choke)... once shes idling at normal im off. About 90 seconds (lid and gloves time).
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