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twotakt
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PostPosted: 11:58 - 08 May 2008    Post subject: Points Reply with quote

Overtook an unmarked police car at a pedestrian crossing last night and they gave me 3 points for it. They said the offence was that I overtook on zig-zag lines.

It was all on video which I seen, at first I thought it was justified but speaking to friends they said as long as no one was on the crossing (which they weren't) its not an offence.

Can anyone confirm/reject whether these 3 points were justified for what I did?

Ta,
Jack
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 12:00 - 08 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

It was an offence. My understanding is that the generally held view is that you are OK as long as you do not overtake the front vehicle in the queue for the crossing.

All the best

Keith
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twotakt
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PostPosted: 12:02 - 08 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought so, thanks for confirming this for me.

Ta,
Jack
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Finglonga
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PostPosted: 12:10 - 08 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thought overtaking was illegal on ZIgZags, however filtering up to the rear of the front car is legal. Most times filtering is classed at 5-10mph faster than traffic you are passing anything faster could be classed as an overtake.
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twotakt
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PostPosted: 12:15 - 08 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I was definately overtaking.

Ta,
Jack
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kenny
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PostPosted: 19:15 - 08 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

same happend to me 3 points and £60 fine lernt my lesson over take after the crossing
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 13:03 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find the use of negative Karma on my post highly amusing given who has awarded it and that no comment has been made in topic. Laughing Laughing
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DidierD
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fastgut wrote:
I find the use of negative Karma on my post highly amusing given who has awarded it and that no comment has been made in topic. Laughing Laughing


To be fair your post was a little harsh.

He accepted the punishment and has learnt his lesson. I'm sure he had a good view of the crossing but he won't be doing it again in a hurry. I know it only takes one mistake to take a life but give the guy a break he's handled it very sensibly.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fastgut wrote:
jackdim wrote:
No, I was definately overtaking.

Ta,
Jack


You Sir are a giant cock. Possibly one of the most dangerous manoeuvres you can attempt on the road in that situation. This is exactly why pedestrians like a relative of mine get mowed down. Evil or Very Mad The fact that you think there was no-one about to use it is irrelevant. This is the same excuse used by the knobjockies who look down at the person they have just killed and say..but I didnt see him. Evil or Very Mad


So even if the light is green for cars/bikes to go and a pedestrian very stupidly walks on the road it's still the fault of the driver/rider? Rolling Eyes

Even if the light is green for pedestrians to walk you should always check for ANYTHING.

How about when a person just walks out where there is no crossing and cause danger to traffic? Far worse IMO.

Sorry to hear about your friend but everything can be avoided. If it's a zebra crossing yes the driver/rider should stop if he isn't going to cause a hazard. But FFS. You can very safely overtake on zig zag lines. I do it (or used to) most of the time if it was clear. No harm in doing it. Just like *OMG SHOCKER* going over the speed limit!
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Last edited by m0l0t0v on 13:39 - 09 May 2008; edited 1 time in total
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

DidierD wrote:

To be fair your post was a little harsh.

He accepted the punishment and has learnt his lesson. I'm sure he had a good view of the crossing but he won't be doing it again in a hurry. I know it only takes one mistake to take a life but give the guy a break he's handled it very sensibly.


But why should it take a police notice to make someone learn about something so important? Poor training for the guy in the first place in either car or bike or poor attitude? Only he knows.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 13:38 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fastgut wrote:

But why should it take a police notice to make someone learn about something so important? Poor training for the guy in the first place in either car or bike or poor attitude? Only he knows.


TBH, what is wrong in overtaking a car while on a bike when pedestrians AREN'T allowed to walk across? (you know, when there's a red light) I'd understand in a car but on a bike it's small and thin so why not?
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 13:41 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0l0t0v wrote:

So even if the light is green for cars/bikes to go and a pedestrian very stupidly walks on the road it's still the fault of the driver/rider? Rolling Eyes


Ultimately yes. Did the pedestrian just magically appear. No. Therefore the drivers hazard awareness should have picked him up and prevented an issue in this situation.

m0l0t0v wrote:


Even if the light is green for pedestrians to walk you should always check for ANYTHING.


Absolutely

m0l0t0v wrote:


How about when a person just walks out where there is no crossing and cause danger to traffic? Far worse IMO.


Not sure why the comparison as we arent talking about that. If you want to open a thread on the stupidity of pedestrians feel free though. I have thousands of things to add on that subject. Like why they decide to walk out in front of learner cars in particular.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 13:49 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fastgut wrote:


Ultimately yes. Did the pedestrian just magically appear. No. Therefore the drivers hazard awareness should have picked him up and prevented an issue in this situation.


Like fuck will I be at fault if someone jumps in front of me when the lights indicate that I can go and the pedestrian is suppsoed to wait for the green light. Also, it's much easier for someone walking to spot a car/bike overtaking then the car/bike seeing the person. It may be illegal to overtake on the zig zag lines but if I went to court because someone jumped out onto the road while it said for them to wait then I would fight it to the death.

Fastgut wrote:


Not sure why the comparison as we arent talking about that. If you want to open a thread on the stupidity of pedestrians feel free though. I have thousands of things to add on that subject. Like why they decide to walk out in front of learner cars in particular.


Because that is pretty much exactly the same thing when a pedestrian walks out to cross the road in a pedestrian crossing when there is a big red light that says "DON'T GO" Or the man. The only difference is the fatc that in the pedestrian crossing there's actually something helpful for people to take notice that it's a road where cars have the right of way while on normal places the person has to look both ways (depending on the road obviously, but I still do jsut for peace of mind).
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**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Very Happy Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed Wink
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 13:52 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0l0t0v wrote:
TBH, what is wrong in overtaking a car while on a bike when pedestrians AREN'T allowed to walk across? (you know, when there's a red light) I'd understand in a car but on a bike it's small and thin so why not?


Well without getting into symantics pedestrians have "priority" at all times....unless a horse is nearby as that has "right of way." But anyway. What if a pedestrian waiting at the red light trips over and falls into the road? Or has some kind of health issue that causes a similar thing. The first car will be more likely to see the pedestrian in trouble but what about the bike behind that is just overtaking? That persons concentration will be divided.

Assuming they saw the pedestrians they have decided they arent a factor as they are overtaking. If they thought they were an isue the person shouldnt overtake...the bike is now alongside the other vehicle when the pedestrian falls from the left hand side of the pavement. The first car swerves to the right to miss them killing the bike rider who was mid overtake who then ploughs into the pedestrians waiting on the other side.

I do a shed loads of miles in built up areas as a driving instructor and some of this has happened. Obviously not with the overtake though. I have had to emergency stop for idiot pedestrians. I have had to grab the wheel from my learner and swerve when an old lady stumbled and fell on the bobbly tiles at a crossing.

It is just not worth the risk unlike a little light speeding.
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 14:00 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0l0t0v wrote:

Like fuck will I be at fault if someone jumps in front of me when the lights indicate that I can go and the pedestrian is suppsoed to wait for the green light. Also, it's much easier for someone walking to spot a car/bike overtaking then the car/bike seeing the person. It may be illegal to overtake on the zig zag lines but if I went to court because someone jumped out onto the road while it said for them to wait then I would fight it to the death.


You are starting from a wrong assumption about priority on the roads.

As far as fault I mean that you had plenty of opportunites to prevent the accident. Its the same as when a car "just pulls out" in front of a biker. Are you at fault? Yes. The insurance will probably go in your favour but could you have prevented it? Yes. Good hazard awareness would have highlighted the driver not looking at you...the wheels turned and moving slightly etc etc.

m0l0t0v wrote:


Because that is pretty much exactly the same thing when a pedestrian walks out to cross the road in a pedestrian crossing when there is a big red light that says "DON'T GO" Or the man. The only difference is the fatc that in the pedestrian crossing there's actually something helpful for people to take notice that it's a road where cars have the right of way while on normal places the person has to look both ways (depending on the road obviously, but I still do jsut for peace of mind).


Fraid not. Pedestrians have priority at ALL times. Red lights mean nothing and most dont say don't go. They are advisory not mandatory for pedestrians.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then why is it only in zebra crossings we give way to pedestrians as they have the right of way yet not in any other place?

If a car pulled out on a biker due to not seeing the biker then the car driver is at fault. Yes the biker could prevent it, as you say but it's unfair to say that it's the bikers fault. Much like it is unfair to say it's someone's fault who's going round a roundabout and a car /bike emerging into the roundabout smashes into the car/bike.

Yeah, accidents can be avoided by both parties through hazard awareness and I'm always aware of things. Not saying I'm the safest rider in the world because i'm not but I am pretty clued up on everything that is going around and I'm checking everywhere. My driving instructor complimented me on my safety aspects which I learnt from being on the bike. It's the one thing he didn't have to teach me or hammer into my head.

When I meant red lights I didn't mean they literally said "Don't go". That's jsut the message which red lights are supposed to give. Maybe should've been more like "stop and wait" or something along those lines.

I don't see why I should have to suffer (nor anyone else for that matter) for other people's stupidty and lakc of hazard awareness. It shouldn't just be you aware all the time but everyone. Best way to survive is to believe everyone is Mafia and trying to kill you though.
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**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Very Happy Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed Wink
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

m0l0t0v wrote:
Then why is it only in zebra crossings we give way to pedestrians as they have the right of way yet not in any other place?


Because like about 90% of other road users you believe that you have priority everywhere else. This is a fallacy and I would imagine one of the reasons they keep wanting to changing the various tests. Althuogh mindset is the big problem. Its why the theory test and then hazard perception were added. People refuse to use the highway code to determine the correct course of action. Its much like buying a computer with software you have never used and then not using the instruction manual. Then the software changes and things that you are used to and have picked up through trial and error are no longer there...yet still the person wont use the manual. The difference is with a computer the worst you can do is blow it up. On the roads the consequences are obviously worse.


m0l0t0v wrote:

I don't see why I should have to suffer (nor anyone else for that matter) for other people's stupidty and lakc of hazard awareness. It shouldn't just be you aware all the time but everyone. Best way to survive is to believe everyone is Mafia and trying to kill you though.


I completely agree but once you change your mindset to accept that pedestrians can and usually do do anything you certainly would think several times about overtaking at crossings whether on a bike or not. Its just plain common sense.

I suspect this was the issue with the original poster. We use a system of Alert Inform Instruct to teach people. So Alert= theres a crossing ahead. Inform=theres someone waiting to cross. Instruct=check mirrors, brake gently to a stop before the line. Its not something road users do though and that for me is a big reason why people sail past other cars at crossings.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 14:38 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I was going to change my mindset because of the unpredictable movements of pedestrians then I would do so about other things, especially with cars and bigger vehicles as I'd be far worse off! I won't change my mindset because I feel I am more than "just aware" about the area and I am confident in my riding ability to prevent most accidents.


I hoesntly don't mean to be rude, but hasn't the fact that your friend got hit by a thing given you a very negative view on it because It was someone you knew/cared of? Or have you always thought of that in the same way, way before it happened. Please don't take it the wrong way as I don't want to insult anyone. Thumbs Up
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**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Very Happy Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed Wink
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 15:08 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

In answer to the first bit...without being rude lol.....your view is the same as 99% of road users. I'm a good rider/driver so it doesnt matter for me. Its like soldiers in combat...it wont happen to me. Well it can and does happen to someone who holds exactly the same opinion. We can however lower the % that it will happen to you or raise it of course.

As far as the person hit, it was my cousin. Yes it colours my view but I would say the same things as I am a driving intructor anyway. Did I think as much about my driving/riding as I do now? No would be the honest answer. Does that make it right though...well again no. As a friend of mine in the force likes to say "Ignorance is no defence against your own stupidity." I quite like that one Very Happy Havin passed both tests before becoming an instructor I am shocked now at some of the attitudes I had. Also at the lack of training compared to what is really required to be safe on the roads. Do I speed? Yes..possibly am not the only one who by day says stick to the limit at all times then flouts things later on. For me 30mph limits are sacrosanct. 40 mph limits same about 90% of the time and beyond that I use my judgment based on weather, other road users and road condition. I am no saint but the situation above makes my blood boil on a personal note and as an instructor I guess i have a feeling of resignation as its an all to common occurance.
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m0l0t0v
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PostPosted: 15:24 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fair does. Sorry to hear about your cousin anyhow.

Also, I know it could happen to me. I never said it wouldn't. I know it's very possible and cars have pulled out on me/pedestrians run out/etc and I've been able to avoid them, whether by accelerating (when one car pulled out, I believe I wouldn't have been able to stop in time, wet surface)

I'm a good rider, and a safe rider. Not sure about my driving as I haven't had any real experience in a car apart from the lessons but I'd like to think I would be safe. I passed my car test first time back in January, so not that long ago but I will probably start driving soon as it's easier to drive an automatic with a broken left arm than a bike with clutches!

And yes, some parts of the tests/training is questionable. Some parts are unnecesary while some should be included. I've actually thought myself to maybe be a bike/driving instructor if all else fails and I'm sure my views would change then.

Ignorance is no dfence against your own stupidity. Can't argue with that at all Thumbs Up

There's things I've done on the bike that were stupid and I feel I learnt much more from my first month on the Hornet than any other time. Then, at that time I thought I really was invincible and rode like a cock. Had a very near off due to misjudging a corner with my then girlfriend on the back. The day after I sat down with myself and "taught" myself to have more control. I am much safer than I was when I first started, as experience helps more than anything. but I am also quicker.

I never said, it's right to overtake on zig zag lines, but I felt that the way you vented Steam on your first post was a little unnecessary, when it's not just down to that person. Regardless of the circumstances.
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**\Tarmacsurfer/** said: It's that immaculately manly coiffure of yours isn't it. One glimpse of your virile locks and the punters can't wait to buy whatever it is you suggest, as it might let them be just a little bit like the Adonis that is our very own Molly Very Happy Doovydoo said: Its not my fault I can't get it up properly, I just wasn't blessed Wink
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 15:51 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well when you have personally seen what can happen when twats do that kind of thing you might react in the same way. I am not going to spout stats because i dont have them but I remember reading that the majority of pedestrian fatalities occur within 50 meters of a crossing or something like that. I am sure one of the web warriors on here will put in the correct stats if they bother to read this. What compounds the whole issue for me is he then thought he might have been in the right. Now if you stop and think for a moment about the consequences etc, as we have discussed so not repeating ad infinitum, I would like to think that most people's common sense would prevail. Maybe I have too much faith. Crying or Very sad
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tofu-wtf
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PostPosted: 17:21 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fastgut wrote:
I would like to think that most people's common sense would prevail. Maybe I have too much faith. Crying or Very sad


You are of course assuming that most people have the common sense to read a highway code every once in a while (even though its online) Laughing

This is the reason why drivers automatically assume right of way when coming down slip roads, pass on zig zags, park on double yellows (with park anywhere lights flashing of course), travel at 60 on dual carraigeways (because thats the NSL of course), use roundabouts incorrectly and every other brainless, thoughtless and inconsiderate action.

A good driver / rider expects these occurences and doesn't allow them to affect their driving / riding.

Fact is, you can't educate everyone to the same level and some people were just born stupid, and we all make mistakes. Shame is you can't throw tippex on a corpse and have another go Confused


and sometimes it's good to forget the rules and regs and just hoon it....at your own peril of course
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Fastgut
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PostPosted: 18:19 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

tofu-wtf wrote:

Fact is, you can't educate everyone to the same level and some people were just born stupid, and we all make mistakes. Shame is you can't throw tippex on a corpse and have another go Confused


I am not sure if it makes me warped but that really amused me. Think it was the mental image of some guy getting a lorry to back up and drop half a ton of tippex on someone Laughing Laughing

I am enjoying watching the post ratings coming in. Rating it abusive is just funny given the context. Shock horror had 1 agree so far. Redundant has me confused Question
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LeeR
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 09 May 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

It all boils down to RTFM and if anyone intends taking a test and becoming a competent road user then they should... (read it).

It's freely available to all, even pedestrians: Highway Code Online
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