Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


That Old Chestnut (CCT's)

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Workshop
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

Aldbro_Bev
Nova Slayer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:19 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: That Old Chestnut (CCT's) Reply with quote

It would transpire that I have to be the luckiest son a bitch (or even daughter) Wink that I know.
Let me share with you a story........
Last weekend, Saturday to be precise I'm doing my 3rd ROSPA Advanced Lesson and about 10 minutes into it, and TBH so far on these lessons I'd been jinxed;
1st time it wazzed it down & I got pissed on
2nd time, It wazzed it down & got pissed on AND when I was doing my "POWDER" check at the beginning of the lesson embaressingly discovers that my front brake light out not working and infact not even connected, whoops says I Embarassed
SO, into 3rd lesson gets not even 5 mile down the road, nice and sunny (for a change) and everything happened so fast......
I'll try my best to describe, Sound of a lollystick in spokes type sound, like a ticking, but metal sounding and coming from the engine, Of feck thinks I and rapidly slows down, life saver, indicator (all this is happening in seconds) and by the time I'd stopped, so had the engine, and I thinks, "Hmmmmm, that wasn't good" Confused
Gingerly, I tries the engine after I'd ripped all my gear off in the seering heat as my instructor says, "What's wrong" and the sound eminating from the engine on turnover, sounded.....
EXPENSIVE!! (Metal & grinding)
Now I'm not a mechanic, in fact, I'm blonde, female and bloody frantic by this time thinking, "Oh bloody hell that really did not sound good, perhaps something to do with Cam Chain"???

Now like I said, I don't dooo mechanics, but from what I've learnt over time I was always led to believe that if it was Cam Chain trouble, I can safely presume that the Valves & Pistons, etc. may well be stuffed? Confused
From what I've gathered off other Forums, etc Honda & Firestorms & V Twins can be prone to Cam Chain (Tensioner) problems, and have even got their own little abbreviation Laughing Everyone seems to talk about CCT problems at some point or other.
The guy who was looking after my bike and mending it in a Hull Bike Shop (no names mentioned, they just happen to lower bikes) lol asked me what the word on the internet was;

I discovered that Storms can be prone to chucking springs at the drop of a hat after only 6000Km due to chain whip or excessive engine braking (that's me, I'm a bugger for it) Embarassed

(Get on with it I hear you say)

Upshot...... He gets in there and expects to find abit of a mess, and......

WOW!! unbeleivable! Shocked Everythings spotless, The CCT had snapped it's front spring and NOT A THING or so it seems has been touched, bent or broke!! PHEWWWWWW
I can't believe it, and this is exactley why I'm posting on here,
Dave says the Bike sounds sweet, I've rode it home and the bike does sound sweet, but I can't help only 99.9% faith that everything will be OK, because I'm led to believe that IT IS UNUSUAL for there to be no damge whatsoever?
Now I'm riding up to Scotland on my baby next Thursday, all the way out into yonder back sticks up over Applecross Pass, and even if I manage to get a signal on my phone, I can't imagine that the AA will be over entralled at having to come out to me Confused
Dave reckons the bike'll be fine, I'm thinking It'll be fine which is why I'm going, what I want to know is what others think????

Is it an unusual thing for there to be no damage?
Am I THAT lucky?? (Dave suggested I put a lottery ticket on this week) Laughing

and would YOU take the chance in having little time to run the bike around before a long journey up to Scotland?

Any info appreciated Thumbs Up

I'll shurrup and stop waffling now Embarassed

Cheers muchly

Bev x Wink
____________________
Warning - MAD WOMAN ON THE LOOSE WITH A BRIGHT ORANGE MOTORBIKE!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

ms51ves3
Super Spammer



Joined: 08 Jun 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:26 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the bike is running fine now I can't see why it wouldn't do the trip. I can't see what there is to gain from riding the bike around before going on the long trip.

You're covered with the AA and it doesn't matter where you are they should still come to you.

I wouldn't worry though and would enjoy the trip Thumbs Up
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Aldbro_Bev
Nova Slayer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:40 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

ms51ves3 wrote:
If the bike is running fine now I can't see why it wouldn't do the trip. I can't see what there is to gain from riding the bike around before going on the long trip.

You're covered with the AA and it doesn't matter where you are they should still come to you.

I wouldn't worry though and would enjoy the trip Thumbs Up

Thanks for that hun, comments like that all help to add that .1% making me feel 100% better about making the trip.
I just thought getting the chance to get out on the bike and listening to the engine, and maybe giving it a chance to bugger up if it's going, I'd rather it happen before I went up there Confused

Maybe I just need to feel TOTALLY confident in the bike. I've it 3 years and trouble free in that time.

It is nice to have it back though Mr. Green even in the rain Laughing


Have you heard if it's an unusual occurrence for there to be no damage after a CCT failure???
____________________
Warning - MAD WOMAN ON THE LOOSE WITH A BRIGHT ORANGE MOTORBIKE!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:59 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thing is with a 4-stroke, if it does damage itself with a camchain failure, the wreckage is usually extensive. It's not like a 2-stroke that can nip up then free off again with scoring on the bore. If a 4-stroke lets go, the engine generally eats itself in a spectacular fashion.

The fact that the engine is running suggests no damage has been done. If a piston had hit a valve, you'd be looking at a new engine. Thumbs Up

The above is one of the reasons I chose a bike with gear driven cams (VFR750). No camchain, no CCT.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Aldbro_Bev
Nova Slayer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:03 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Thing is with a 4-stroke, if it does damage itself with a camchain failure, the wreckage is usually extensive. It's not like a 2-stroke that can nip up then free off again with scoring on the bore. If a 4-stroke lets go, the engine generally eats itself in a spectacular fashion.

The fact that the engine is running suggests no damage has been done. If a piston had hit a valve, you'd be looking at a new engine. Thumbs Up

The above is one of the reasons I chose a bike with gear driven cams (VFR750). No camchain, no CCT.


I've heard about these gear driven Cams, Duc's have 'em don't they? and when they go wrong, apparently they go Famously wrong???? Confused

Is it also true I've heard that Honda CCT's are pants, or renowned for being pants??
____________________
Warning - MAD WOMAN ON THE LOOSE WITH A BRIGHT ORANGE MOTORBIKE!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

instigator
Super Spammer



Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:11 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honda CCT's ARE pants.

Fireblade I just sold needed it replaced badly.
Firestorm CCT's are notoriously bad, if I ever bought one it's the first thing I'd replace on it.
CBR600's are the same.

You got damn lucky. Laughing Thumbs Up
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:21 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aldbro_Bev wrote:


I've heard about these gear driven Cams, Duc's have 'em don't they? and when they go wrong, apparently they go Famously wrong???? Confused

Is it also true I've heard that Honda CCT's are pants, or renowned for being pants??


Ducatis are Italian, the Italians always have to go one better than everyone else.

The only CCT I can think of that works really well is the hydraulic one in the C90cub. So effective I bet most people don't even know what it looks like. Essentially a roller that is pressed against the camchain by the engine oil pressure. The more you rag it, the harder it presses.

There again, the whole camchain carry on is highly dubious to my mind. Why they don't make them all either gear driven or belt driven with the belt up one side under a cover as a replaceable service item (like they do with cars), I don't know.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Aldbro_Bev
Nova Slayer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:25 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

instigator wrote:
Honda CCT's ARE pants.

Fireblade I just sold needed it replaced badly.
Firestorm CCT's are notoriously bad, if I ever bought one it's the first thing I'd replace on it.
CBR600's are the same.

You got damn lucky. Laughing Thumbs Up

Thanks for that, that's exactly what I needed to hear Mr. Green
Confirmed what I'd thought Thumbs Up

Guess I'll go put me lottery on ASAP Laughing

That'd pay for a FEW trips to Jockland Laughing
____________________
Warning - MAD WOMAN ON THE LOOSE WITH A BRIGHT ORANGE MOTORBIKE!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

instigator
Super Spammer



Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:28 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

What bike do you have?

Doesn't tend to happen on all of them, just notorious on a select few. You can usually tell they're going through the usual 'ticking' sound they make when they're ready for renewal/attention. Course, it seems the original poster didn't get that tell-tale sign! Scary stuff..
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Aldbro_Bev
Nova Slayer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:33 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Aldbro_Bev wrote:


I've heard about these gear driven Cams, Duc's have 'em don't they? and when they go wrong, apparently they go Famously wrong???? Confused

Is it also true I've heard that Honda CCT's are pants, or renowned for being pants??


Ducatis are Italian, the Italians always have to go one better than everyone else.

The only CCT I can think of that works really well is the hydraulic one in the C90cub. So effective I bet most people don't even know what it looks like. Essentially a roller that is pressed against the camchain by the engine oil pressure. The more you rag it, the harder it presses.

There again, the whole camchain carry on is highly dubious to my mind. Why they don't make them all either gear driven or belt driven with the belt up one side under a cover as a replaceable service item (like they do with cars), I don't know.


Thus enabling the C90 to do what it does best, Goes ON & On & On..... in fact right around the world I believe, I'm sure someone's been around the world on a C90, or at least they were talking about doing it.
The downside of Belt driven is Silent but deadly as far as I've been told, It's a bugger when it's on it's way out as ya can't hear. Apparently car mecahnics started griping about the problem when they fazed out Chain driven on cars, this is only what I've heard, not sure if there's any truth to it??


I love this learning business, it's marvellous Mr. Green I'm also a total Classic Aeroplane, Spitfire and Merlin freak and was buzzing when I used to have the pub and the pub one day (mainly comprising of blokes) explained to me the whole principle of engines, Singles, Twins, Triples, fours, etc. etc. I find it fascinating WHEN I UNDERSTAND! Until last week I'd never totally comprehended about Cams & Chains & tensioners, NOW Laughing I've got a Tensioner right here beside me as an ornament Laughing AND I KNOW HOW IT WORKS Laughing Laughing

Let's commence lesson 2 next week........ Air intakes Laughing


1 thing at a time, I'm blonde, and I can't cope with too much data intake Laughing
____________________
Warning - MAD WOMAN ON THE LOOSE WITH A BRIGHT ORANGE MOTORBIKE!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Aldbro_Bev
Nova Slayer



Joined: 25 Mar 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:36 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

instigator wrote:
What bike do you have?

Doesn't tend to happen on all of them, just notorious on a select few. You can usually tell they're going through the usual 'ticking' sound they make when they're ready for renewal/attention. Course, it seems the original poster didn't get that tell-tale sign! Scary stuff..


a VTR Firestorm, this is the thing about it all, THERE WAS NO INDICATION....AT ALL!! Shocked No tell tale rattly engine sounds, no nothing, sounded absolutley fine up until..... Confused

Maybe to a trained EAR, then maybe yes? perhaps, but it sounded fine to me, and my bike is like a washing machine....to a woman (pmsl) Laughing I know how it should normally sound Wink
____________________
Warning - MAD WOMAN ON THE LOOSE WITH A BRIGHT ORANGE MOTORBIKE!
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

instigator
Super Spammer



Joined: 19 Oct 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:50 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aaah sorry...didn't realise you were the original poster! How unobservant am I? Embarassed

The bike I just sold yesterday, started off as a tickle and then became a proper clatter! Glad I sold it to a mechanic as I didn't have the tools! Other than the VTR CCT's, as I understand it, the engines are absolutely solid. Thumbs Up

BTW - If you have race cans on, you might have drowned out the sound of the CCT. Laughing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:12 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aldbro_Bev wrote:

The downside of Belt driven is Silent but deadly as far as I've been told, It's a bugger when it's on it's way out as ya can't hear. Apparently car mecahnics started griping about the problem when they fazed out Chain driven on cars, this is only what I've heard, not sure if there's any truth to it??


Is true, but if it was designed properly, it takes all of 10 minutes to change a belt. You just do it as a routine service item every so many miles.

The British army issue Harleys have them. I've seen a cambelt changed on one of those in ten minutes flat in rally field.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:13 - 31 Jul 2008    Post subject: Re: That Old Chestnut (CCT's) Reply with quote

Aldbro_Bev wrote:
Is it an unusual thing for there to be no damage?
Am I THAT lucky?? (Dave suggested I put a lottery ticket on this week) Laughing


If it just lets the chain go loose then it tends to thrash about and start to wear the engine cases. Takes a while for this to be important. If it has failed suddenly then the main problem would be it allowing the chain to jump, so the valves touch the pistons and that really would stop the engine. Other possible problem is debris from the failed tensioner dropping into the rest of the engine, but presume all the debris has been accounted for.

Aldbro_Bev wrote:
I've heard about these gear driven Cams, Duc's have 'em don't they? and when they go wrong, apparently they go Famously wrong???? Confused


Modern Ducatis all use belt driven cams. The older bevel drive ones could be described as gear driven I suppose (but the last of those were made about 20 years ago).

stinkwheel wrote:
There again, the whole camchain carry on is highly dubious to my mind. Why they don't make them all either gear driven or belt driven with the belt up one side under a cover as a replaceable service item (like they do with cars), I don't know.


Gear driven cams are expensive to make and make maintenance more difficult (makes it very difficult to skim the cylinder head). Belts are a lousy idea, still need tensioning like a chain but more prone to failure. Not uncommon for the belts on a car to be a very expensive service item as the tensioners as it is best to replace the various tensioners at the same time.

Cars are going back to chains as they are far more reliable. Basically chains will easily last the life of most cars.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

mattgirv
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 31 Mar 2007
Karma :

PostPosted: 07:17 - 01 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Belts are a lousy idea, still need tensioning like a chain but more prone to failure. Not uncommon for the belts on a car to be a very expensive service item as the tensioners as it is best to replace the various tensioners at the same time.

Cars are going back to chains as they are far more reliable. Basically chains will easily last the life of most cars.


Surely though if a chain were to break, and they do, it would cost more than the equivalent belt? Most cars are still belt driven though aren't they? I mean I have only seen a few chain driven cars recently, the BMW E30 being one I believe. Isn't that more of a racing spec item persay, for a car? I figure most race cars are probably chain driven.

As for gear driven cams, I love them. I love the sound and I love the fact my engine will munch itself before I have to even start considering the cams being a problem. Both my bikes were cheap as well so although it may well have been over-engineered and unnecessary, it was on (in my case) Honda's back and they paid the difference. My bikes are only easier to work on for it. Admittedly I am not tuning here. Razz

I don't really see any actual price difference between bikes with gear driven cams and bikes without. Although I agree with you that they are expensive to make and that is why more bikes do happen to have cam-chains.

And to the op, I agree completely with the above sentiments. If your CCT has been replaced and your engine is still running as it was before, it seems the risk has already been and passed.
____________________
Bikes: 1998 Honda VFR800Fi, 26,500 miles Laughing
1989 Honda CB-1, 38,000 miles
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:02 - 01 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

mattgirv wrote:
Surely though if a chain were to break, and they do, it would cost more than the equivalent belt?


Depends. The chain is far less likely to snap. Main result of a chain or a belt snapping is the bending of all the valves. With the chain you do have a small chance that it could do further damage in the very short time before the engine stops, but not really that likely.

mattgirv wrote:
I mean I have only seen a few chain driven cars recently, the BMW E30 being one I believe. Isn't that more of a racing spec item persay, for a car? I figure most race cars are probably chain driven.


Most race cars are, but for BMW it is just a reliability issue. Alfa have just gone back to chains for their current 4 cylinder engines.

mattgirv wrote:
I don't really see any actual price difference between bikes with gear driven cams and bikes without. Although I agree with you that they are expensive to make and that is why more bikes do happen to have cam-chains.


Honda only used gear driven cams as the had a total disaster with cam chains in the early to mid 1980s. Rumour has it the VFR750 was sold at a loss as they tried to regain their reputation (which they had destroyed).

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Wafer_Thin_Ham
Super Spammer



Joined: 18 Nov 2005
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:27 - 01 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

instigator wrote:
What bike do you have?

Doesn't tend to happen on all of them, just notorious on a select few. You can usually tell they're going through the usual 'ticking' sound they make when they're ready for renewal/attention. Course, it seems the original poster didn't get that tell-tale sign! Scary stuff..


On the Firestorm they can just let go. The reason they just go is because the front tensioner spring doesn't get any oil!

Due to the vibes and the engine braking eventually the spring snaps and the cams skip teeth, usually this involves piston and valves getting together, but not always. I've heard of about 3/4 bikes that have been find after it. The luck of the draw.

The rear tensioner is usually ok.

The best way to cure it is to fit a pair of manual CCT's from Debben Performance. Thumbs Up They are £50 a pop, I have one on my hornet, they are good.
____________________
My Flickr
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

philone
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 24 Feb 2008
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:34 - 01 Aug 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote

or modify your cct to make it a manual tentioner. at the end of the cct there is a bolt about 5 millimeters long unscrew this bolt then screw a bolt about 20 mill long with a lock nut in,with the engine runing carfully turn the bolt in by hand untill it tuches the ajuster inside you will know cos it will vibrate a bit,then screw in asmall amount untill the chain stops ratteling then lock it off with the lock nut ,cheep and effective Wink
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 17 years, 344 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Workshop All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Page 1 of 1

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.14 Sec - Server Load: 1.36 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 120.3 Kb