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SoND
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Turbo CBR Reply with quote
I've got it into my head recently that fitting a turbo to my nc23 is a feasible idea and I need someone to tell me otherwise. Laughing

What's involved in doing it? So far i'm thinking get a turbo, make a custom exhaust manifold and intake plenum, get a wastegate, intercooler (optional?), fuel pump and setting up the carbs. Engine internals will stay stock, I think because the cams are gear driven this limits my options with changing the compression. I'm not looking for stupid power and trying to keep it simple. Shifty

The bike at the minute:-

Heavy duty clutch kit fitted
Aftermarket CDI fitted - Improved ignition (So it says, I've no way to test it) and limiter removed
Radiator needs replaced so that's an excuse for a bigger one.
Brakes and suspension will be upgraded first.
I wasted money on a crap stainless exhaust system and I want to make a better one. I want to weld something. Mr. Green

I'm not sure of all the small things I'll run into and need done in a project like this but I think i've covered the big things. Any advice is greatly appreciated.
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Last edited by SoND on 17:20 - 09 Sep 2008; edited 2 times in total
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
My first advice is get a bike you don't need for transport for a while. Turbocharging is usually a long and painful process.
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SoND
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have a 125 to keep me going through the winter and I'm off work with a broken ankle for the next 6 weeks or so i've a little bit of time to try and plan it. I'm in no rush for it this year, right now it's just an idea.

What size of turbo do you use on your busa? Can I use something of a similar size on the 400 and still have a controlled power curve?

What do you think's the most difficult bit in a turbo project?
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
SoND wrote:
I have a 125 to keep me going through the winter and I'm off work with a broken ankle for the next 6 weeks or so i've a little bit of time to try and plan it. I'm in no rush for it this year, right now it's just an idea.

What size of turbo do you use on your busa? Can I use something of a similar size on the 400 and still have a controlled power curve?

What do you think's the most difficult bit in a turbo project?


You'll find it difficult to match the size of the turbo to the engine. A 1300 hayabusa engine may be smaller in capacity than a 2l subaru engine, but the scooby redlines at 7k, and the Busa redlines at 12k so the volumetric 'throughput' is very similar.

Try and find an 800-900cc engine that redlines at 7k and you'll be in the right ballpark. Perhaps a Smart Turbo? I'm also not sure about running stock internals. A CBR400 does not have gear driven cams IIRC, you're thinking of an NC30. You may be able to use a thicker head gasket. I remember reading that for turbocharging you don't want a compression ratio much above 9:1 else you'll get detonation. A healthy CBR would be (I'd estimate) about 12:1.

Thats about as far as my knowledge goes, but it will definately be hard.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
BLUEX5 wrote:
The CBR has gear driven cams too - making and mods regarding squish next to impossible.


Are you sure about that?
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
BLUEX5 wrote:
Yes...some of the gay little things even say "cam gear train" on the seat pod.


Fair enough, I've never owned one so I am not speaking from experience.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
BLUEX5 wrote:
The CBR has gear driven cams too - making and mods regarding squish next to impossible.


Not as critical as you'd think in a turbo conversion. Many people just lift the barrels with a spacer plate to drop the compression and forget about the pistons.

The way I like to think of sizing a turbo for a small-capacity roadbike is to take my expected power output and multiply by 1.5, then get a turbo that flows enough air for that figure. Assuming your Honda makes 60hp stock you gotta look at about 6psi of boost meaning 85-90HP or so. Your turbo needs to be good for 120hp (metro turbo perhaps?). Dunno what a smart turbo unit makes but #I bet it's too small.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
150% stock power? so a 62bhp bike gets 91bhp? , erm you might as well just drop a CBR600 engine into it, THEN turbo it giving you a toasty 150bhp, though the NC23 frame probably couldn't take it.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Yes you would need a custom-made thicker head-gasket or two gaskets and a 16-gauge spacer. Also you might suffer accellerated wear on the cam gears as the meshing would be out.
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
So it sounds like the CBR is a singularly terrible bike to try to turbo.

Smart makes 80bhp as standard but can be chipped up higher than that so I suspect its not too far off.

A mate of mine turboed a MG midget with an MG Metro turbo. Worked quite well except it made the heavy duty clutch slip in all four gears...
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SoND
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PostPosted: 22:04 - 09 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Geri wrote:
Yes you would need a custom-made thicker head-gasket or two gaskets and a 16-gauge spacer. Also you might suffer accellerated wear on the cam gears as the meshing would be out.


Is stainless ok to use for the spacer?

Don't like the sound of the gears meshing loose, do you mean by accellerated wear it will fail straight away or it could last a while? If it's not going to last would low compression pistons lower it enough on its own?

Maybe if a good intercooler is fitted and the boost isn't excessive will it still be at risk of detonation with standard compression?

Quote:

I know for a fact the NC29 doesn't have barrels (one piece top casting) so you are really fuxxored for engine mods.


I'm almost sure the 23 is different to that.

What about a 306 1.9d turbo? Says it has 90hp standard but i've heard of people getting more from them. Will a bigger engine automatically have a bigger turbo?
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 04:21 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Diesel turbos aren't generally suitable. If you look at a diesel turbo next to a petrol turbo you'll notice big bifferences in the housing sizes.
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy
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neatbik
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PostPosted: 05:11 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ive got 2 knackered peugeot diesel turbos sat in my shed, they are huge, far too big physicaly for a bike i reckon.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 06:46 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
You could just drop in a CBR600 Jelly mould motor. Much more reliable. Only need the 600 swinger, shock and wheel to go with it IIRC.
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Last edited by Wafer_Thin_Ham on 10:15 - 10 Sep 2008; edited 1 time in total
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 07:24 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
There was a guy on the GS forum who turbo'd a GS 500 ended up with about 90 bhp at the rw IIRC.

Don't expect it to be easy or cheap, will be cool though.
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 16:22 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
I've posted a pic on here before of a guy who did that - plus intercooled and shoved into a Mito frame Very Happy
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132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good Very Happy
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:16 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Sounds like a poor choice of engine. Spacing the head to lower compression is going to be pretty much impossible with the gear driven cams. Finding a small enough turbo would be difficult.

MarJay wrote:
A mate of mine turboed a MG midget with an MG Metro turbo. Worked quite well except it made the heavy duty clutch slip in all four gears...


Midget used the A series engine (well, the chrome bumper ones did), basically the same as the Metro. Should have been a pretty easy conversion.

All the best

Keith
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

Midget used the A series engine (well, the chrome bumper ones did), basically the same as the Metro. Should have been a pretty easy conversion.

All the best

Keith


Yep thats what he did. He didn't change any cooling or anything else apart from adding a fuel pump powerful enough to push fuel past the carb seals. Not an ideal solution but it appeared to work...
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SoND
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 10 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Found this

IHI RHB31


https://www.made-in-china.com/china-products/productviewGArnebEdRxBm/IHI-RHB31.html

https://yeqi.en.alibaba.com/product/50059437/206044320/Petrol_Turbochargers/IHI_RHB31_Turbocharger.html

https://img.alibaba.com/photo/206044320/IHI_RHB31_Turbocharger.jpg

Code:
IHI RHB31 Turbocharger details:

                                      a. Trim Turbine 55.5

                                      b.cooled by oil and water, with two floating bearings.
                                      c. for mini car, motorcycles from 500cc-600cc.

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SoND
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PostPosted: 09:07 - 11 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
Says in one of those links the A/R is 0.7, is it too big? Is the housing size or turbine size more critical on a bike like this?

A quote from somewhere else about the Metro 1275 turbo and it only uses a 0.25 housing.

from somewhere wrote:
Stevie, sorry dude, but you have to be corrected here. The metro never had a T2, it had a T3, with a 0.25 turbine housing - one that i understand was developed specially for the tiny 1275 engine. The T2 range of turbo's first appeared in '85 - three years after the first metro came off the line. The same T3 remained on the metro till it stopped in 89

The compressor on the stock metro T3 is a 40 trim - the smallest available, but still listed as a stock item, unlike the 0.25 turbine.
The 'cossie' compressor you say you ve got so that s a T35 compressor I wouldn t have thought you d be able to machine a Metro T3 compressor housing to take this size compressor. I suspect you have a 50 trim compressor, maybe a 60 trim, but I doubt the sierra Cosworth compressor will not be at all right for a tiny 1300cc motor
The 0.36 turbine is a normal upgrade for the metro turbos, the 0.25 is really limiting at high RPM, but again, as the 0.25 is NLA, you don t have a lot of choice but to have one..

The LDV 200 turbo has a 50 trim compressor and a 0.35 Exhaust, same as the R5GT except it isn t water-cooled. The 50 trim compressor with the 0.35 exhaust is perfectly matched to a 1293 in pretty good trim. I m sure the Montego TD unit is the same compressor and trim spec also again the main difference being these are not water-cooled (although the early R5GT units were also not water cooled). I used to reckon that TD s wouldn t do the job, only when I got the maps did I realise there is little different in a diesel turbo than a petrol one, other than the water-cooled core.

The stock R5GT unit in my mini regularly pulled low 14 s at Avon and York, and this year has been dipping into the 13 s on a regular basis following some detail changes to the induction and exhaust system. Trust me, they are about as perfect a turbo as you could want for a turbo A-Series.

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Pete.
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PostPosted: 04:27 - 12 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
The A/R is the area/radius ratio and determines the spooling characteristics for the given wheel size as well as the airflow. To know how much power it can support you need to find the compressor map for that turbo. If you go too big you will get surging which is bad for the turbo - too small and you'll be in the compressor choke zone and intake temps will skyrocket.
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Faldo
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 12 Sep 2008    Post subject: Reply with quote
If it helps, Smart turbochargers are literally tiny. I've sold a couple before, and compared to one of a 306 Diesel, I'd say it was at least 4 times smaller (Literally fits in the palm of your hand), and much much lighter. Ideal for a bike in that respect, but as it's so small I don't think it would boost power much.
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