Zeitgeist: Addendum

[ColdInsomnia]

'Part 2' of that Zeitgeist movie that was (semi) popular around here has been released.


https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912


I hope that we can all sit down and watch it (I am currently in the process of doing so), and give our rational, unbiased opinions of what it says.



____________________
Yamaha YB100 | Yamaha TZR125 | Yamaha XJ600S | Suzuki GSF600
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
John Lennon

[ColdInsomnia]

Alright, clearly no one else wants to get the ball rolling, so I'll start;


Resource based economy... workable?


I think so. But not without our current ways of life disintegrating... at least for a while.
____________________
Yamaha YB100 | Yamaha TZR125 | Yamaha XJ600S | Suzuki GSF600
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
John Lennon

[GhostRider]

I liked this one a tad better than the first one, because it seemed more sincere. The first one was a bit more interesting because it had that "conspiracy" element about it, which I quite enjoy if im honest. Addendum had a more real feel to it I think, like at the end you just realise that there is seriously something wrong with the way things are going and the difference is we can see this happening in front of our very eyes, every time you switch on the tv or look at the headlines (Bradford and bingely being a prime example). I think maybe again the director/maker may have skimmed over a few of the finer points, but I can understand that in order to pack into a short space of time without going into a finance/economics lecture that many wont understand or care to for that matter.

Resource based economy? Sign me up for sure. The thing is to make such a thing work you are for sure going to have to overthrow the worldwide government and the oil companies. If some of the things stated in Addendum are to be believed such people would have no trouble in bringing about the execution of any pioneers of such a civilization, so you will need many martyr's before anything even begins to happen. To this end I believe it would result in the army bringing forth martial law and literally slaughtering anyone trying to rally for this idea to be put forth (peruse the ever increasing 'anti-terrorist' laws for evidence that their supposed 'right' to proceed with such methods for your 'protection' is just).

On the flip side, it would seem from one point of view that if the events proposed in Addendum do play out as predicted, then surely a resource based economy is the only way forward? If there is universal collapse in the banking/financial economy, what alternative is left? If all your money is useless, whats the point of having money?

I think it would take a major re-adjusting of peoples selfish nature as well, monetary rewards are hard-wired incentives for anyone to do anything, the concept of working, even for free housing, energy, food, etc is very foreign to what everyone is used to, so I think people would sit around for too long deliberating the pro's and cons rather than actually physically making an attempt at making such a concept work - as the main proponent states himself "My system isnt perfect by far, its just a hell of a lot better than what we're in now".

It'll be interesting to see what pops up on that zeitgeist movement website that becomes active on the 10th, I'll give it a browse for definite.

GhostRider
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I have all the characteristics of a human being: blood, flesh, skin, hair; but not a single, clear, identifiable emotion, except for greed and disgust. Something horrible is happening inside of me and I don't know why. My nightly bloodlust has overflown into my days. I feel lethal, on the verge of frenzy. I think my mask of sanity is about to slip.

[UrbanRacer]

[ColdInsomnia]

[Hetzer]

I've watched some of the Addendum and while I get the money is debt stuff they seem to be claiming that NO money is real, it's all just fabricated out of thin air.

Money is a physical representation of both physical material and physical work. It's a means of putting objects and sweat into your pocket. Personal debt is where you take value on the promise of providing future sweat. THAT is REAL money.

Debt allows you to borrow sweat you haven't yet shed so you can buy objects now that you otherwise wouldn't have immediate sweat to cover.

It also forces people to proritize their material desires..."shall I have a car or a boat, I can't afford both." Without money as a system of regulation everyone would want at least one of everything, and there simply isn't enough material or man-power to provide that kind of largesse.
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"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[ColdInsomnia]

[Skudd]

Money only exists while it has a worth. That worth being as tool to grease the cogs of the barter system. It only has worth and a reality as long as we all agree that the currency is equivalent to an amount of toil and that toil is equal to the object that you want.
If on a Desert island it would not matter how much money, gold diamond etc you had if the people on that island didn't need or recognise those things as having worth.
____________________
Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

[Hetzer]

[Skudd]

So if we all got paid the same, where would my motivation be to become an organiser of people, to take charge? Some jobs you walk in punch your card then at the end of the day punch your card out and that's it. Others are responsible 24/7 for what goes on even when they are not in work or at their work station
The surgeon does need the cleaner to keep the theatre clean for him to work in but the surgeon has put more effort into his trade and has more responsibility. Both are linked to the well being of others, but aptitude and knowledge are at the two ends of the spectrum.
____________________
Famous last words of Humpty Dumpty. " Stop pushing me "
Petty Anarchists look at "1984".............. The Visionary looks at "Animal Farm".

[ColdInsomnia]

Since the dawn of time human ingenuity has worked for one thing - to make life easier for ourselves. This is what technology strives to achieve, and what it should continue to achieve.

Manufacturing, maintenance, cleaning, even surgery and nanotechnology. All are capable of being performed by robots, and this is from within our narrow view of the current age. In a hundred years, technology will be capable of doing things that humans today cannot even fathom in their wildest dreams.

A world where we do not have to work to survive is very achieveable thanks to our engineering skills, and indeed it is what man has worked for since he first shaped a flint, and invented the wheel.

The idea is, in a world where we do not have to work to survive, our wants and needs will obviously change. You will have all the time of your life to do what humans do best; create.

If you create a painting, you will get joy from sharing that painting with others, instead of selling it to them. If I were to program an awesome video game, I would get joy from sharing to every other person, as I have no need to sell it. Ultimately, technology could not be held back because of 'cost', and would no doubt see a very large amount of humans become scientists, as that is truly the only way to hope to gain any understanding of why we are all here.

Every hurdle that we see in today's society is fixable by technology - technology is what has fixed every problem that humans have faced in the past and it will continue to do so. Politics solves nothing, it just creates more problems.
____________________
Yamaha YB100 | Yamaha TZR125 | Yamaha XJ600S | Suzuki GSF600
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
John Lennon

[Hetzer]

[ColdInsomnia]

I'd imagine that those of you who have seen the movie will already be aware of this, but for those that aren't, the Zeitgeist Movement is up and running. If you think what it says in the website makes sense, and you'd like to be part of spreading the message of an alternative world (BLASPHEMY!!!!), consider signing up.

Allow me to quote one of my favourite passages from the website for the criminally lazy;

[ColdInsomnia]

The site has been updated, there's an FAQ available here that answers very many questions about the proposals. Here's a great quote;

[Kickstart]

Hi

We already have a resource based economy for some of the population. Generally they get dismissive titles such as dole scroungers.

I agree with Hetzer that money is just a token to exchange effort. But I do not agree that all effort is worth the same. There are some boring and dirty jobs that nobody wants to do, while some interesting jobs that everyone wants to do. Different financial rewards sorts out the difference in supply and demand for these jobs.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[ColdInsomnia]

But ultimately, all of these jobs can and will be replaced, as we have seen happen to professions such as factory workers. Supply and demand is more and more rapidly becoming an outmoded concept. Every single profession; from the stinky toilet cleaners that will be replaced by superior cleaning technology, to the engineers that keep our power plants working will eventually be automated.

With an exponentially increasing population, coupled with a rapidly declining need for human labour - the result in a monetary system is that people still need 'jobs' to support themselves (and pay their taxes).

These jobs are created, as you mentioned in another thread, by over-complex governments and other 'legal' entities which employ people purely for the sake of keeping them employed.

Consider how advanced technology is today to even just 100 years ago, and then consider that we are still using a social structure that is thousands of years old. We are still fighting amongst one another, and the result is that we will inevitably use our technology against ourselves - instead of using it to provide an easier and happier existance.
____________________
Yamaha YB100 | Yamaha TZR125 | Yamaha XJ600S | Suzuki GSF600
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
John Lennon

[Kickstart]

Hi

Idea is that as people are freed up from menial tasks then they can put their effort into more useful tasks. Not just have their time wasted with pointless tasks, while wasting everyone elses time dealing with them.

If you automate jobs then you save money. If all you do with the saved money is pay it somehow to those who you no longer need to employ then there is no purpose in automating things. Just save the effort, and suffer when someone else can produce the same but more cheaply because they did automate and their ex staff are now doing something useful.

All the best

Keith
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[ColdInsomnia]

[Hetzer]

Take this to the ultimate end. All labour is automated. Everything you need and want is supplied. House, energy, food, water, clothing, transport, appliances, toys, the lot. Whatever you want, you get.

What then?
____________________
"There's the horizon! Ride hard, ride fast and cut down all who stand in your way!"

[ColdInsomnia]

[Kickstart]

[ColdInsomnia]

I did not answer my own question. I asked you what jobs would be more useful than the ones currently being phased out.

The "What will people do?" answer is certainly not a job. The closest word I could use to describe it would be a life-long hobby.
____________________
Yamaha YB100 | Yamaha TZR125 | Yamaha XJ600S | Suzuki GSF600
"Our society is run by insane people for insane objectives. I think we're being run by maniacs for maniacal ends and I think I'm liable to be put away as insane for expressing that. That's what's insane about it."
John Lennon

[Hetzer]

[Kickstart]

[ColdInsomnia]