My concept bike, need opinions please

[tradedog]

Hi All

I am considering producing a specialized bike in low volume. I will be using selected Chinese components and manufacturing other components myself. The bike will be a trick/stunt/urban commuter machine inspired by the Yamaha Air Tricker, which was a concept bike never put into production.

Light weight will be the most important consideration, combined with style. This will be a great machine to learn wheelies and stoppies etc. at low speed. It will also be a great machine for urban use. It will have a 250cc motor, liquid cooled. Target weight around 100kgs.

I hope to be able to sell it for around $4000.

I would be very grateful if you could have a look at the pics attached and tell me what you think. Would you buy this machine if it was available? Any opinions and advice gratefully received. These pics are initial concept idea only. Please ask your friends to have a look.

[tradedog]

please let me know if the pics are not loading

[dlatch]

https://www.bikechatforums.com/download.php?id=78386

looks ace

what about license plate and lights at the rear?

[ms51ves3]

[Slacker24seve...]

[hmmmnz]

have you ever ridden a bike with the back wheel exposed like that??

you get shit right the way up your back,
may be a bmw style rear guard with number plate bracket in 1
https://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/attachments/travel-bikes-for-sale-wanted/1826d1230952440-bmw-f650gs-dakar-sale-santiago-006.jpg
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[LongJohn22]

To answer your original question, no I wouldn't buy it, not that I don't think its potentially a neat idea and might well fill a niche, but I'm not in the sort of age bracket that would be interested in a bike to do tricks on. I wish you all the best in your endeavours, nice to see someone having a go, keep us informed.

[CaNsA]

[tradedog]

Thanks for the comments, keep them coming. I appreciate that there are many practical issue like number plate hangers, mudguards etc. At this stage I am trying to get the thing to look right.

I had in mind a "slot in" module with indicatorss, lights, reg plate etc. which you could literally slot in when you hit the road.

[Rowey]

I would say do a 125 version and this may appeal to kids a fair amount. They like to play silly buggers (stunt).

And for the older, fully licenced among us, is the 250cc version going to be a 2 stroke or 4 stroke? A two stroke will offer more excitement. If you're going for a 4 stroke, I would think a 400cc single would suit it better.

Also it's going to need good suspension and brakes if it's going to be any fun.
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[hmmmnz]

gunna be pretty hard to compete against ccm or highland

to get any sort of reliability or parts availability you'll have to use a Japanese or Austrian motor, using anything else is just wasting your time, no body will buy a bike with a Chinese motor,

every thing else could be parts bin special, but scrimp on that and your wasting your time,

you'll also have to run with easily available parts, or part sizes, say for the wheels run them with the same size bearings as a Suzuki bandit,
so people can ditch the shit Chinese wheels if they break, and run the forks the same size as a commonly found bike,

eg make all replaceable parts a copy of something else that is easily found
the only thing unique on the bike should be the frame, and the swing arm and tank, even then base the swing arm on some thing else,
eg a hornet (if you are keeping with the no cushion lever design)
just mike it a lattice version of it,
____________________
the humans are dead
I kick arse for the lord
Wiring Diagrams BIDNIP it bitches

[tradedog]

On the Chinese aspect I understand the reservations. On the other hand, don't forget some BMW bikes are made in China as are bikes from the big four in Japan.

Your i Phone, i Pad, LCD televisions etc. are likely made in China. China has a space program etc etc.

China certainly can make high quality stuff which is why I specified "selected" Chinese components. I would go to China to find these.

The vast majority of Chinese bikes are made for their domestic market and price is by far the most important factor there. Hence their reputation for poor quality.

The truth is affordable bikes will become the domain of the Chinese very soon. When they decide to tackle the world markets the established manufacturers will have to pay close attention.

[Paxovasa]

Looks similar to the pic below.

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ja0nvj5Jato/S6x6XdygzXI/AAAAAAAAFmY/myemLGQv8xg/s1600/2010-KTM-125Stunt.jpg
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[tvchimp]

[hmmmnz]

when engines are made for the big 4 in china, they are under very strict supervision, you as a 1 man outfit
can't do that, so really you can't use a chinese engine,,


answer me this, do you own a bike with a chinese engine, and im not talking about a jap bike with a chinese component filled engine


no?? why ever not?
you can't get parts for them.. you can't rely on them, end of,
argue about that all you want but its the reality of it

ould you buy a bike that you could never buy any parts for?? even if it looks nice, i'd love to own a mz1000 which is an awesomely engineered german built bike, but i couldnt convince myself to buy one because if it ever broke down, i would have to get parts made by hand.

buy a motor off rotax every one else does
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the humans are dead
I kick arse for the lord
Wiring Diagrams BIDNIP it bitches

[tradedog]

I agree about competing with CCM and Highland. Point is, thats not the point. They are twice the price.

All of us, including me, would rather ride a bike with a Honda engine, but a Honda engine costs about 65% of my target price for the whole bike.

I have a Chinese 125cc delivery bike at my company. It is four years old and has over 25 000 miles on it. No major components have been replaced, just regular servicing. I ride it occasionally and its smooth and reasonably powerful.

lets face it, if one of your mates bought one of my bikes and it proved fun and reliable, you would probably buy one yourself.

Check out Megelli on the web. All made in China. If you saw one in the flesh you could quite easily believe it comes from Italy.

On the 2 stroke issue I think emissions will be a problem. I agree 400cc would be nicer but China are only just starting to make acceptable 250's.

[patroddy]

i believe the frame is the wrong shape i think it should follow a bit more a style to a derbi senda where the frame runs along the seat line
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[KLR600]

[tradedog]

Thats fair

[Teflon-Mike]

$?
Whats the target market, USA?
What would be the Euro Price? & would, with a 'proprietry' Chinky motor, meet Euro Emmissions for homologation, or would it be another 'self registration' back door job?
You want to know if I'd buy one.
Well, lets start by saying its not looking promicing, and that Chinese engine is a sticking point.
First, its a chinese proprietry engine.
Yes, I know they can be 'OK' snowie had one in her 'British' designed & outsourced Regal AJS... who have been doing this kind of thing a VERY long time, using Yamaha engines, until they started using licence made Honda motors, and I think now licence made Yammie mills.....
For a lightweight, 'trick' bike, a hybrid Comp-Trials / Motard, I would expect something that had Comp-Trials type nerve ending 'response' and shear 'punch' on the throttle, but more, where a comp-trials bike runs out of 'puff' at about 25mph, I would expect this thing to carry on, tugging at my arms, all the way up to to around 50, like a scrambler....... and more.... carry on up to a genuine 70+mph, and be stable enough to swing it in the twisties.
The Montesa HRC 4T is the only four stroke comp trials that has so far delivered 'almost' two stroke trials 'punch'.... but it is so tuned for low rpm torque, it wont be offering the 'tug' I'd hope this thing to have. Tuned for a wider power band with more mid range and 'something' up top, you'd seriousely risk loosing the 'punchiness' that the bike needs to make it unique......
Trying to do all that with ANY four stroke engine, let alone a 250cc one, and more a propriety CHINESE one, doesn't sound promising.
I mean realistically, I already have a bike that is pretty 'close' to delivering what I that one is hoped to..... its a thirty year old, air cooled Yamie DT175....... (which Regal BSA actually built under licence as the 'Tracker' for a while.......)
OK, not quite the same 'style' but in 'concept'?
So...... tough cookie....... What has YOUR bike got to offer ME?
I bought me old DT for a few hundred quid. If I want to stunt it and get it wrong, its no great loss, and damage to it is easily and cheaply fixed, if its even worth bothering to fix. Style wise, yeah, its dated.... but lets talk money here
What WOULD it cost me, here in the UK?
US prices are usually cheaper then UK, and in the show-room UK prices are often more in £ than the Yanks pay in $......
So what would the thing cost me here?
Becouse $4000 'target' suggests to me, if it ever hit the UK market, it would be £4,500...... or as much as a new Honda XR250......
Why would I buy an unknown, with a chinky engine, not a tried and trusted Honda or Yamaha?
Style alone REALLY wouldn't be enough to do it for me.
Performance, IF it REALLY had it, as in comp trials low down 'punch' AND Motard top end, might start to sway me.....
Others might be swayed by a learner legal 14.5 bhp 125, but for a full licence holder, it would need more than the 20'ish' a 250 single is likely to chuck out, and it would HAVE to have that bottom, middle and top' tug, coupled to very little weight to make it actually perform, not just look like it might.
Maybe NOT a single?
Perhaps a twin?
Or there has to be much more incentive financially to buy it, rather than an XR.
Jap 125's sell for £2500 up, and learners will pay that, becouse its learner legal..... your bike isn't at 250cc, so a 125 would be essential to get British and continental Newbies interested in it.
While full licence holders, well, style alone wont sell many bikes. Performance will, IF it has it, along with competition pedigree, and 'cudos'.... but main incentive will be price, and with a chinese motor?
It would have to be down in the bargain basement, sub £2500 On the Road, I think, to get enough people interested here.
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[fiveus]

looks pretty cool.Needs spoked wheels though

[tradedog]

Thx. for the comment. Agree spoked wheels would be nicer, they are just very hard to draw/create in CAD.

[tradedog]

Teflon, thx for your long reply.

Target market is initially South Africa and then UK. Target price in UK is 2500 sterling.

I agree with your comments on power at the bottom and top as well as response. A CRF 450 motor would be great but out of the question financially. Don't forget that light weight is going to make a big difference and can hide a multitude of engine shortcomings.

Your requirements, lightning response, great suspension etc. etc. is what you are going to get from a Montesa 4RT or Beta Evo4 stroke trials machine. Check out the prices of these new or 2nd hand. You won't get the road manners out of these or useability due to gear ratios.

I am considering the possibility of bringing in used Jap motors and rebuilding them but this is a big extra load in all respects.

I think a lot of the appeal of my machine will be in its style. It will also ride good, but be a lot more fun to walk up to than a geriatric DT175.

[Teflon-Mike]

[CHR15]

it wouldn't pass an msva test if the final thing looked like those cad pics.
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