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richjp
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pepperami
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richjp
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Teflon-Mike
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richjp
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Teflon-Mike
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 Posted: 15:45 - 12 Jun 2011  Post subject: |
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| richjp wrote: | Will do doubt be back in touch as soon as I've got the engine off next weekend and I see what I've let myself in for!. |
Can answer that one now...
Pain, Furstration, misery, expense, more frustration, inconvenience, hassle, more expense, anoyance... mess, grief, more expense.... more frustration, more pain, more hassle, a little bit more grief....
And IF at the end, you achieve anything even remotely close to half the standard of 'the Pup'... a big grin, followed by some smart arse telling you a two stroke would have been faster, or a CG cheaper.... followed by, alternating bouts of devilish inclination to let the thing scream its way to 12K, and have some fun, then guilt over having done so, and a constant paranoia about the cam chain.......
Seriousely, they are a great little bike, and hugely under rated, BUT....
For a full on 'Project'.... NOT the best place to start... in actual I cant think of many WORSE places to start, and I have two outside 'Done' and one work in progress......
They are not the best supported bike out there for spares. Carburettor bits, and annoyingly the carburettor mounting ruibbers, which perish and tear, are utterly unobtainable. You can get new float needles but that's about it. Barels and pistons and even brand new cylinder heads and cams are available, but by dint of being common to the CM 'Rebel' seriers. CDI's are also available, but other parts are not so easy to come by.
Big bugbear is forks. fork stansions if yours are bent or have shot chrome, are no longer available new. CB100N, CB125RS, CG125, CM forks all different dimensions & not interchangeable. Only option is to find decent second hand ones.... and they are getting fewer and further between, or better ones and have them rechromes, which is about £150 job.
Rear suspension is another annoyance. That mono-shock linkage is a BIG part of what makes the bike. There are other 'twins', not many, and not as willing or as powerful. CD Benley & CM Rebel both have single carbed 360 crank motors making about 10bhp, CB has 180 degree motor, that in UK Spec 'Reduced Effect' (Restricted!) form makes 12.5, or recammed, and recarbed, in Euro 'Full-Power' spec 17bhp.
Engine makes the bike; its very eager, with a lot of low down fouyr stroke chugability, but unlike commuter singles, being a twin, it is really smooth with it, and doesn't give the drive line snatch and judderyness making it labour at tickover, and respond to the throttle. Its BRILLIANT for low speed playground manouvers, it WILL chuck really happily at walking pace in 2nd, but where a single may take a lot of clutch slip, and judder and hesistate trying to pick up from walking pace, CB will 'drive'... and it will keep going.... through a strong midrange, up to around 6K revs, where it doesn't have quite the 'urge' of a two stroke coming on the pipe, but starts to pick up its skirts ready to run... and gets exiting from about 8K to the blood line, where its howling.
Doesn't FEEL that dramatic, like a sports stroker, but that motor is delivering more useful power over a lot more of its rev range and is a lot more driveable, and up top, delivering the same goods.
Compared to a four stroke single, that top end kicks in with a bit of a grin, where things like the CG or YBR are running out of pupp, the CB is JUST starting to get into its stride! Again playground work, & Mod 1, brilliant. For the speed trap 'stuff', you can just about 'hang it' at the 30 trap maxing out in 1st, if you want, where the singles have to do it in 2nd and are just a the point of wondering if they need to change up to get some more speed, and risk not getting it soon enough for the trap, or holding 2nd and hoping it delivers....
BUT, engine needs to be well fettled, to deliver.
Rings can wear and loose compression, bores might not be too bad, but good bore & rings pretty essential. In the head, valve guides often suck oil, through perished stem seals. Guides dont seem TOO prone to wear. Though valve seats do. Regrind, rather than lap for best results. And the cam needs to be properly timed in. Camchain's seem to 'go' at around 20K, if you are rebuilding replace with decent quality replacement. More strain on the CB chains than other benley twins curtecy of the extra revs and stronger, double valve springs. Cam chain tensioner usually needs tweeking from the top of the rocker cover to get it to adjust properly. THAT little trick needed to stop it sounding like an acid crazed percussionist. And tappets run a tight clerance and need to be kept an eye on. THEN you need decent carbs, and to have them set up well. Decent rubbers are essential. Leaking rubbers cause all sorts of horible running issues. But good needles and main jet, also very important.
Seems a tendancy on these bikes for the main needle & jet to either wear, or be knackered by over enthusiastic carb cleaning... I have a pair of carbs with brand new untouched needles in them... they have iscernable corners on the taper 'steps' NONE of the others do!
Ignition, is pretty robust. Only real issue I have had has been making sure that the generator cover is seated properly. The starter motor mounting plate is sandwhiched between genny cover & crank case, and the outer cover has the induction trickers in it. If the case sits 'cock' you can get a poor signal or no signal from the lower trigger, and consequently poor spark, on LH Cylinder.
So, onto the rear suspension. That multi link monoshock rear end is what lifts the bike out of the dark ages of the old Twin-Shock commuter, and gives the bike a poise and handling on par with many much more contemprary sports bikes, not just commuters.
(Bike WAS Honda's 'sports' 125, in 1982, designed to go head to head with the Kawasaki AR125 & Yamaha RD125 two strokes, on performance, when concieved)
BUT, the multitude of links, and pivots, all but I think ONE, using 'split' bushes, wear, or sieze, and shock, out of sight, out of mind, and right in the crud zone infront of the rear wheel, burried in the middle of the bike, gets neglected.
Neglected, the Super Dreams suspension is its Achilles heel, and the bike goes sloppy and spongy, and the steering heavy and lazy.
Properly fettled with decent bushes and sleeves, and a decent shock, its a revalation..... little thing will drop onto its footpegs without a bat, and hold line, and changes of line, and still let the suspension work. Two up or solo, well set up, it REALLY is a joy.....
BUT, getting one properly overhauled is hassle and expensive. A patern mono shock is about £80, compared to £40 for a pair of budget twinshocks for something like a CG. Meanwhile where a T-Shock like the CG has two suspension pivots on the swing arm.... CB has those, plus, two more in the swing arm, then three more in the linkage.... and they all have two bushes in each piviot, plus a sleeve.... and the bushes alone are £8 a piece.... completely renovating that back end, CAN be a £250 job.....
Experience with the 'Pup'... worth it though... but you have to query it!
Practically, to do a CB125 'properly' is as much work, and more expense than doing something a lot more exiting, whether a two stroke sports 125 or a 'big bike'. Doing it cheaply, you dont get a bike much, if any better than a typical 4T 125 commuter... and in almost ALL cases, anything else you lifted a spanner to would ultimately be worth more of the parts and effort you put into it....
Weigh up carefully what you want out of this project, before committing TOO much to it...... better to switch horses now, rather than wish you could, further in.
For a Dad & Lad project... biggest thing will be keeping interest and motivation going, and actually getting teenage involvement.
Something like a CG might be more 'doable' being simpler. Something like a TZR or a DT might generate a bit more enthusiasm...
Either may prove easier and less of a drain or a strain......
But... Little Dream?
Done, they do have a HECK of a lot of charm, and a re a really 'nice' newbie bike, very playground friendly, and yet, on the road, if well set up, a joy to ride, as inspiring and exiting as many two stroke... and they have a big 'cheek' factor, looking like a humble commuter.... but going like a sports stroker!
But mechanically....... for masochists, only, really!
Which is why SO many of them are in the state they are, because few realise that they AREN'T a low maintenence, simple 'cheap' little commuter like a CG....
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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lozza59
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Posted: 16:58 - 12 Jun 2011  Post subject: |
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richjp
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| Posted: 23:18 - 12 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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 nice to see it, the top end looks like someone has fiddled with it already, you could check the timing? could be a tooth out? i dont know if cylinders and pistons can cause such a noise, maybe if it smokes excessively like mine  (though mine doesnt make such a noise), more than likely the top end, but good luck with it!
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 14:37 - 13 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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| lozza59 wrote: | nice to see it, the top end looks like someone has fiddled with it already, you could check the timing? could be a tooth out? i dont know if cylinders and pistons can cause such a noise, maybe if it smokes excessively like mine (though mine doesnt make such a noise), more than likely the top end, but good luck with it!
|
Hmmmmm... it does rather look like it's not as it left the factory.
Motor should be black, ALL over with red flash on a squarer rocker cover.
That rocker cover looks like the more rounded one of earlier T-shock bike, or CM Rebel, as does the colour.
Earlier T-Shock bike was 'full power' 17bhp, built before restrictions, but had 6v points ignition & generator, not 12v & CDi.
CM Rebel, in later versions was 12v & CDi but being a 360 crank, different ignition arrangement and only 10bhp.
Could be a Benley engine, same as the CM rebel, 360 crank and silver colour, with round rocker cover. BUT adds potential for it to be a 125, 185, or full 200, or even 233cc version. Though none but the 233 motors actually any more powerful than full power TD-C, and then only be one or two BHP!
Three or four chances...
1/ Rebuilt with T barels, head and rocker cover.... possibly its cam.... may be a tad more powerful, but without T carbs, not much.
2/ Full T engine, with the TD-C clutch cover, kickstart removed; 12v genny covers and 12v generator & Ignition fitted, along with the TD-C's electric strarter and the starter motor mounting plate... (I think the crank case has to be 'shaved' to get the clerances right on that though!)
3/ 'Alternative' engine from the benley series, dressed out to suit the TD-C's wiring loom. All but the bigger motors offering less power.
FIRST checks.... ignition. Simple check, crank it over, with both spark plugs out the holes, and both on the same side of the engine so you can see them, and see if they both spark at the same time.
If they DO you have 360 crank motor, if they spark alternatively, you have 180 crank motor, which basically means CB125T or later CV carbed CB125TD-J. (also had silver engine)
To be honest, the engine is the exiting and interesting 'bit' of a project... bit I always start with BRAKES, steering and suspension.
Absolutely NO GOOD having a bike that goes, if it don't STOP or go where you want it to.
Having nicely built motor, also upps anticipation and increases haste to get the thing 'riding', which is where corners start getting cut, usually where they are least helpful.
Good news is IF you ARE going to 'do' this bike..... for all 'some' bits of the engine are awkward to get, whole ruddy bikes, with OKish engines in them to pilage harder to get parts are plentiful... looked at buying a bike not long ago for no more than a decent pair of carbs and carb rubbers!
But even then, there ARE solutions, and the barels, pistons, heads, valves, camchains etc are ALL readily available..... the ENGINE is not a HUGE worry.... if its not a 'viable' rebuild, it can be readily swapped with one that is, reasonably easily.
Important bit is having a 'home' for it that's worthy of a good engine, when 'done'.
Sorting brakes, steering and suspension, is like foreplay and increases the anticipation, and gets a chunk of the graft 'done' and out the way getting to the interesting bit... engine..... and when that's 'done' its litterally 9 bolts...... seven tackled with 12mm spanner, two tackle with 14 & 17mm sockets (Oh how I RUE the fact I even KNOW that!) to wallop it in place..... you then have two hose clamps to attach carbs, four M6 nuts to attach header pipes and an M10 fine (or two) to attach silencers and pillion pegs...... three bullet connectors and two milti plugs, petrol tank to drop on top, hose to collect... and Snowie or I ... now well practiced at the procedure can have an engine swap done and running, in roughly two or three hours...... and that includes the time to take the old engine out first!
So, having sorted the 'Bike' bit of motor-bike before the 'motor' bit, as foreplay..... the climax comes quick, and can give both release and enjoyement, rather than rushing it, and feeling frustrated there's more work to be done.......
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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richjp
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| Posted: 18:37 - 13 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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Hi Teflon-Mike
You have me intrigued re. the engine on my supposed TDC, so I went and looked at the engine number, which is: JC24E - 5106105. According to https://www.cmsnl.com/faq.php?fq_catid=14 that would mean the engine is from a 1984 CA 125 S Rebel?
I must admit all these CD/CB/CA letters confuse the hell out of me, but from what I could see on the net early Rebels effectively used CB-125 engines?
Assuming it's repairable and it is a CA 125S engine, will my Haynes 'CB/CD 125T and CM 125 C Twins' manual be usable? If so which of the various CD/CB models in the manual would it be closest too?
I'll still do the ignition check at the weekend, but thought the number was interesting to relate.
Sorry about the dumb questions - haven't quite got all the models right in my head!
cheers
Richard |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 20:09 - 13 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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| richjp wrote: | Hi Teflon-Mike
You have me intrigued re. the engine on my supposed TDC, so I went and looked at the engine number, which is: JC24E - 5106105. According to https://www.cmsnl.com/faq.php?fq_catid=14 that would mean the engine is from a 1984 CA 125 S Rebel?
I must admit all these CD/CB/CA letters confuse the hell out of me, but from what I could see on the net early Rebels effectively used CB-125 engines?
Assuming it's repairable and it is a CA 125S engine, will my Haynes 'CB/CD 125T and CM 125 C Twins' manual be usable? If so which of the various CD/CB models in the manual would it be closest too?
I'll still do the ignition check at the weekend, but thought the number was interesting to relate.
Sorry about the dumb questions - haven't quite got all the models right in my head!
cheers
Richard |
Right the CB is the 'sports' derivative, and traditionally means twin carbs, and 180 degree crank engine.
CD is the 'Benley' which traditionally is the 'Touring' version... well apointed (read 'Heavy!) conservative styling, and '(in)adequete performance, but useful ecconomy, from single carb, 360 degree crank engine.
360 degree crank means both pistons ride & fall in unison, which means that if reved they would vibrate more. 180 degree cranks have better inherent 'balence' becouse one piston is riding while one is falling so to some degree they cancell out each other's shakes. This means that the engines, though slightly 'lumpier' in power delivery... takes a four stroke engine 720 degrees of crank rotation or two full revs to make all four strokes of the combustion cycle..... both pistons rising and falling together on a 360 crank, the power strokes are equally spaced in the combustion cycle, you get one 'bang' every rev. 180 crank motor, the bangs aren't equally spaced, you get a bang, short pause bang, long pause bang, short pause bang.... hence 'lumpier' delivery... but in better balence loadings on the bearings aren't as high, so they can rev higher and get a modicum of smoothness from the intervals, though unever, being shorter...... ie short pause bang, even shorter pause bang.....
CM's are the 'factory custom' derivative of the old twin shock CB and CD... the CA is a more full on 'cruiserer' derivative of the CM....
So still uses the 'Benley' engine, as do all the 'Benley' derivatives, with its lower reving 360 degree crank.
The CB 'sports' variant, is the 'oddity' in the Benley variants in using a 180 crank, to let it rev higher, rather than the other way around.
There are other differences, one of them being that the CB variant got a five speed gearbox, which wasn't introduced until later on the other models, and I believe it has different ratios in it even where the CA/CD/CM variants aquired it.
Main reason the CA/CD/CM engine makes max power, 10bhp, at 9,000rpm, and will just about rev out to 10K.
CB engine, with 180 crank and higher rev ceiling, makes peak power at 10,800 revs, and red lines at 12K, but hapily revs off the clock past 13! (if in decent fettle!)
Renovating a CA/CD/CM motor, WOULD be rather retrograde.....
I dont know what will have been done to make that engine run in the CB frame..... first question, does it have the rebel's single carburettor, or the Super-Dream's twin carbs?
If twin carbs, it wont really liberate much more power from the thing, but will increase fuel consumption, and make carburation a tad harder to get clean.
Next up, the ignition system will have had to have been 'diddled'.
As said, 180 degree crank CB motor has out of phase firing, demanding a 'twin' pick up ignition system to provide two sparks at 180 degree intervals individually to each cylinder, on the 'lost spark' principle.
Lost-Spark, means that the ignition fired every revolution of the crank. Saves having a distributor. firing at a few degrees before TDC on the compression stroke, go through the cycles and fire the ignition again at a few degrees before tdc, you find it's occuring on teh exhaust stroke, when there's nothing in the pot to set fire to... hense no problem it happening, the spark is just 'lost'.
Now! 360 deg crank, both slugs at TDC at the same time, one on compression, about to get a spark, the other on exhaust, not needing a spark. So, IF you used a single trigger, and a twinned ignition coil, one with ONE low tension feed and TWO High Tesnsion windings..... coil coild enerise and trigger two symilteniouse sparks from a single trigger....... once per revolution, one will set fire to something in one pot, other will be lost in the exhaust gasses in the other, then NEXT time, they'll be swapped over......
Do that on a CB engine, and with its 180 crank, one cyliner will get sparks when it needs, other will get a spark at BDC, on the bottom of induction, and the bottom of power..... not much use, really!
Hence Super Dreams have 'Duel' ignition, each cylinder having its own induction sensor in the generator cover, feeding it's own CDI under the petrol tank, feeding its own single lead Coil by the head stock, firing its own spark plug in the pot.....
If some one has dumped a rebel engine in there...... what ignition system does it have, or mongrel of one?
It DOES have the Super Dream twin pick up generator case on it..... has some one pulled one of the triggers out of it? Or is it still there, but isolated?
Next how are they making sparks? Have they used the Rabel's ignition loom, and a single CDi firing a twin coil, or have they used the CB's twin CDi's and twin coils, charged and fired from a single trigger? Have they used ONE trigger and CDi from teh CB and simply bridged the twin coils to both spark off it? (That latter one not wonderful for CDI life BTW)
AND.... ultimately, engine sounds like a bag of spanners! Or what was it, a chissel bomb in a glass works...
First suspicon is the cam chain tensioner never being adjusted, followed by huge tappet clearances...
Just done mine tonight, its 0.05mm, some set them HALF a mill, thinking that cant be right, or set them to whatever incorrect imerial conversion is... think its 20 thousandths of an inch, so they set 0.2mm... stuff like that!
NOW; back to comment that renovating, or trying to ressusitate a CA/CD/CM motor would be rather restrograde.....
Engine makes 10bhp, same as a CG engine....... It revs no higher than a CG engine. Makes no more power than a CG engine, is only notionally more smooth than a CG engine, BUT costs three times the money to overhaul........
IF you were so deturmined... you weren't bothered about that extra 25% more power... you could becouse the casing bolt pattern is identical, drop a CG, push rod single engine STRAIGHT into a CA/CD/CB or CM frame.... which is what has been done with many of the chinky clone bikes.
Would be easier and cheaper, and work just as well.... BUT be even cheaper and easier and work better in the lighter CG frame it belongs in!
NOW, as you are PLANNING a full engine rebuild, as a learning excersize.... my suggestion is to scour ebay for a 'propper' 180 degree crank CB engine to rebuild....... you can normally pick up engines that have been siezed or torn down for under £50... only bit you need to be sure is 'good' really is the crank.... though the gearbox would be useful too.
You can choose which cases to rebuild into, but ideally you want the CB125 gears and the CB125's crank.
Camshaft you can buy new for about £30 with bearings. Barel kit with pistons & rings, about £90... although.... I'll tell you what I'm about in a minute! Heads are still available, but you should be able to salvage the casting from one or other engine, and valves, IF you need them are about £7 a pop. Cam Chain, important bit, about £25.... though I'd reccomend a more expensive OEM DID for about £45 if you intend keeping it, and not being SO paranoid or guilty reving the thing as its intended!
Its the cam and the carbs that make these engines the power, but you CANNOT use the 360 crank with 180 cam, for obviouse reasons.
Now.... what I am about..... the older 1970's CB200 was to the CD200 Benley of its day, what the Super Dream 125 is to the CD125 Benley of ITS era.... a sports derivative.
However, unlike later engine's the CB200 was an over bored 125, using the same 41mm stroke and 180 crank as the 125.
At the time, the 'Benley' was 185cc and used the same stroke as the 125 Benley, 41mm... they then took it out to to a full 200 using a longer stroke as well.
So, idea presents that you could use a CB200 brael on a CB125 bottom end for a big bore 125... unfortunately the CB200 had a different cam chain tensioner arrangement and points ignition, and the plan falls down.
Fitting CD200 barels only gives 185cc, and you have to use lower compression CD pistons..... So, boring a CB barel to take 200 pistons sopunds a 'plan' but the liner doesn't have enough metal in it..... but the 200 barels do.... so my 'plan' is to use CD200 barel, from a later engine with the same camchain tensioner arrangement as the CB motor..... bore that to take higher compression CB200 pistons, and with the 'full power' camshaft from an earlier T model, or euro spec 'dream'... create a CB200 'Super Dream'... but where the original CB200 only made 17bhp, handicapped by points ignition amongst other things.... the full power 125 makes that JUST from cam and carbs..... so adding the 200 pistons for a 60% capacity increase, offers pottential to scare the 20bhp mark, and the territory of de-restricted two stroke sports 125's......
Which.... is all a bit in the air at the moment, I'm still collecting 'bits'.... BUT, point is, that starting from scratch with a 'planned' rebuild, sost and effort to build such a motor isn't much more than building a Learner-Legal 'stocker'....... It wont be Learner Legal.... which is another reason I'm in no hurry..... 'the Pup' is a girlie bike for the O/H, becouse she is little.... and its a nice size for her, and light. So, post test, super up, with arouynd 20bhp on tap, make a nice little 33bhp complient restriced licence bike for her.... we hope....
Anyway... point is, renovating the rebel engine, doing a full rebuild on one, to go into a Super Dream... very very perverse idea.
You will be spending a lot of time and a lot of money, and short changing yourself for it ALL, getting a bike that has taken Oh So much more cost and effort to create, that WONT even go as well as a humble CG commuter.....
Back TO where I started suggesting, like the irishman asked for directions, that if you want a project bike, "I wuddn' be wannin to start frum ere, f'sure f'sure!"
Might be worth it, IF it delivered the goods a 'good' super dream could, but with an engine that will only make four fifths the power even if done well, its never going to deliver the goods.... you might as well do a CG and save penies and effort, AND have something at the end, thats a known quantity and worth something more sensible compared to what its cost YOU.
I have just been out on my 'Reduced Effect' CB125.... and every time I blood line that engine, I grin..... feel guilty after... but I still grin...... Snowie had CA Rebel 'Copy' before this, and it was a nice enough bike... would haul us around two up OK, but GOD was it GUTLESS! The engine did NOT make me grin, it made me grimace.....
Never coaxed the thing above an indicated 55, which is probably a genuine 50 tops.
CB? I have GPS tracked progress on the Corporal, and TWO UP had that bike up to a real 70 per.... and on a nice bit of road, that chassis lets you use that performance...... in fact you start feeling that it is simply lack of 'go' (its restriced remember) holding you back, and wishing it had those few extra ponies of the full power version. It could EASILY make use of them.
A 10bhp, 50ish mph Super-Dream.... and while De-Bugging the Corporal, that is exactly what I had for a while.... is, TRULY frustrating..... it wont rev, it wont go, yet it has the chassis to do it, IF ONLY the engine would deliver the goods....
So, very notion of spending the sort of money and taking teh time and effort I know it takes to build one of these engines where THAT is the 'best' you'll achive?!!? Madness.....
Be like paying for a date with a porn-star, knowing that she'll look amazing, and wiggle her wiggly bits for you to look at, but THAT is all you'll ever get.......
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Posted: 23:19 - 14 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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https://s1177.photobucket.com/albums/x349/snowtigeress/Frame/100_0254.jpg
The pup with the tank off, showing the coils. CDi's are top right hand corner, on top of the frame, FORWARD of the tank tab rest, hence sit UNDER the tank when it's fitted.
Annotating your pic, they are item "C" and you'll have to lift the tank to see them.... it... depending.
A = Starter Solenoid
B = Indicator Flasher (usually Kaput!)
C = The region your CDI units live in
D = Main Fuse Holder
CDi unit, will be black, about the size of a packet of Swan Vesta, but a bit thicker, with two connector sockets coming out the bottom, something like this:-
https://i.ebayimg.com/00/$(KGrHqYOKkIE1q2cgf!-BNq+emWqQg~~_12.JPG
'Strange' wiring under rubber boot on LH frame leg, looks pretty normal. Blue & white wires, will be the +12 & =!2 AC ignition charge feeds to the CDi's.... Benley engines all have 'independent' ignition system, that has its own windings in the generator, to supply sparks.
Cant see under the boot, but on a Super Dream, the bullet that plugs into them should have two wires in it, one going to each CDi box.
One other wise, often black, is the neutral indicator lamp feed. Switches by earthing ignition switched live at bulb, in the box.
Would suspect that if you have twin coils, they have either spliced the CDi triggers so that both circuits are firing from the same inductor, or they have twinned the LT feed from the RH cylinder to both coils.
Only real question, if there is only one CDi under there, is whether its the Benley CDi or the Super Dream CDi.
Pretty robust units, normally, but there are a few alternative part numbers knocking about. They were a common unit, and the plugs fit a lot of small honda's, but they have different advance maps in them.
The benley and CG CDi's dont have as much advance, and dont map much beyond 10K revs... engines dont rev that high...... CB's do!
CB CDI units are a common upgrade for hopped up CG's, sold as 'Race' Igniter boxes.... the outer cover painted a fancy colour!
But, they are all designed and loaded to fire a single coil..... hence the 360 Deg Twins, having single CDi & single 'Duel' coil, the CDi only loaded by a single primary winding.
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Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Posted: 14:36 - 19 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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| richjp wrote: | Hi Teflon-Mike |
Hi!
| richjp wrote: | the battery that came with the bike appears to be US as it won't charge |
Sounds about normal. £20 from Busters. Check prices & specs when you order, they are sent 'Dry' ie no acid. Some suppliers include an acid pack in the 'kit', others dont.... makes them look cheaper, till you get them, and find they have no electrolyte, and filling with distilled water wont do much!
| richjp wrote: | so I can't check the spark plug firing. |
Shouldn't be a 'problem'.... apart from juice to turn the engine over on the e-start.
Small Hoonda ignition is self energised. You could bump start with a flat battery, becouse the ignition is powered solely from its own windings in the generator.
IF you used a car battery & jump leads to power the starter motor and make engine turn, you'd get ignition current from the generator to the sparkers.
| richjp wrote: | I have been looking for Superdream engines, but nothing so far |
Yup.... THAT is your project 'break point', and why the bike has a CM motor in it.
On thier own Super Dream Engines come up in two guizes. Boxes of bits or part dismantled, udually offered for around £50. I could hapily sell you something that looked like that for that kind of money..... wouldn't do you much good. Usually get taken to bits like that becouse of oil starvation siezure. Needle roller bearings on the big ends colapse, while cam shaft bearings weld themselves to the bearing caps, and chew into the ali of the head.
The head may be salvageable, with a new cam and cam bearings, for around £40, if not a new head is possible for about £50 more. Crank, however is another story. Needs to be pressed apart to have the bearings replaced, and if any journal damage, the pins ground or replaced..... its a £200ish 'job' that one. Beware the bozes of bits, and dont buy blind.
Some times they come up for a bit more money, complete, described as 'untested' crank turns so not siezed. Yup, engine I have with chewed up head and missing big end needle rollers, turned over.....
Third for they come is as a 'Runnner'.... which unless the bike is in a frame can be hard to prove.... usually for over £100. THAT kind of money can get you a whole bike 'Spares or Repairs'
WHICH is where you have to do your thinking. YES you could get another engine for this bike. BUT, box of bits, may not be too expensive, but rebuilding it, likely to be. Buying a whole bike, with a 'better' engine, JUST for the crankshaft could be cheaper than trying to salvage a crank.....
Which leads to IF you are going to have to spend that sort of money to buy another engine... possibly a whole bike, to get that engine, or simply on having chunks replaced or reconditioned.....
Do you REALLY want to percevere with THIS bike?
If you have to go look for another bike, why restrict yourself to CB125's? As a full 'Project', looking for a two stroke commuter, would make life a lot easier for yourself. If it has to be four stroke, then a single. Push Rod CG with interchangeability of bits with chinese copy motors. Maybe a City Fly or XR for a bit more 'fun' factor.?
I'll let you mull the logic there..... and ponder matromonial reactions... which is least likely to gain most scorn? Another bike? Another bike, and this one swept up, and hidden or sold? This bike sucking loads and loads and loads of money,never considered? This bike laying around never getting 'done'?
That is where the 'rear-set' gear lever pivots... or ought to. Suspect then it has the Benley/CM fixed gear lever on the actual selector shaft. That will be about 12" away from the footpeg and mean lifting your foot OFF the peg to change gear! Not good.
You now need a new gear change linkage.... Check with Dave Silver Spares, New, from Honda, the gear lever and links is about £90.... they come up 2nd hand on e-bay for about £30... often with worn balls that pop apart. But you also need the footpeg bracket... another niggly ebay bit, which second hand could cost you anything from 99p to £15... if your lucky, you'll find one with the footp[eg, as it looks like that one has lost its rubber, and been covered in insulation tape! For a fiver.
Such bothery, and imediete 'need' for small and obscure parts to be sourced, suggests, more will be uncovered as you progress, and the 'notion' of buying another whole BIKE as a donor for the engine, that could also offer up such 'small parts' most ecconomically.... I mean it really would only have to offer up that bracket and the gear links to have justified spending an extra £50 to get another more original 'project bike', and maybe use THIS one as the 'donor'....
Actually... TVChimp...... Here:- 1987 CB125 TDE That bike is a total LEMON.
I spotted it originally on E-Bay about a year ago when I was looking fro a project bike for Snowie. It was advertised as needing just a little work for MOT, but they wanted too much money for it. Sold, and popped up a month or so later, supposedly having had a full rebuild, and been tested, for STUPID money. Didn't sell. Popped up twice more over the next six months, rediculousely over priced, curiousely loosing the MOT it has supposedly had, then gaining it again! Until Chimp bought it for £600, which IF it had had all teh work claimed was 'reasonable', if not, liability. Needless to say which it proved to be! It siezed on him on the way back from collecting it!
NOW, he's advertised that bike for about six weeks, dropping the price, to an E-bay start of £350, which is £100 over priced for what it is, a non running, '87 CB125. And given the bikes history, and the fact its had a LOT of monket mechanics done to it.... Personally, I would NOT buy it as a 'Project'.
But I WOULD buy it as a 'Donor'......
Chimp has spent, by my reckoning at least another £200 on engine parts on that bike. New head and barel being the most obviouse 'bits'. But it still no go..... NEEDS a full tear down, and putting back together PROPERLY. And I suspect that I could possibly do that with little more than a £15 gasket set, and a little time lapping valves and using a torque wrench properly.....
At the moment, I have too many project bikes knocking about, and need to sell some, not buy more, and I dont have the money to make Chimp an offer thats not a total insult. Boiling it down, the bike is really only worth £250, tops. I have bought two super dreams with non running engines, one exactly as described, 'low compression', for less than that, with tax and test left on them, in the last year. And I think he'd be loath to let it go for the £200 I would offer him, as a 'breaker'.
BUT, I'd suggest you call him, and talk turkey. It FAILED to sell on e-bay for £350.... which I suspect is the least he can let it go for, given what he has spent on the bike.... maybe you could meet him half way?
THAT would give you a genuine CB engine, and an awful lot of the bits you might need to buy to make it a good'n already bought...... PLUS all the bits and bobs and brackets you might need to fix odds and sods here and there. And prove the more ecconomical way to go.
Though I suspect, as its MOT'd and cosmetially quite tidy, you may be inclined to try and make good, Chimps bike...... Though?!?!? I'd be sceptical.
Anyway.... connection is there, suggestion is there, it COULD provide a solution, IF you are deturmined to carry on with a Super Dream project.
| richjp wrote: | I have traced the wiring and the diagram below shows what seems to be the layout - the black ovals indicate a splice. The (1) and (2) on the diagram are shown on the photo 'ignition wiring (left-hand side)' and 'ignition wiring (right-hand side)' respectively. The wiring into the CDI is shown in the two CDI wiring photo. |
That unfortunately means very little to me. You have highlighted loom spurs and connector blocks, which look much of a much, and seem pretty much in the places expected.
You need to trace the individual wires, following the coloir codes from the diagram in the back of the Haynes. There's two ways that this could have been 're-wired' to fire the sparks for a 360 cank motor.
Ine is to take the tricker from the top pulsar to both CDI's and isolate the bottom pulsar trigger.
Other is to common the output of the one CDI to both coils.
I cant remember the colour coses, but you need to be stripping back insulation and looking at wires goinginto connector blocks and looking for non standard splices or junctions.
| richjp wrote: | I have taken the top cover off to expose the rockers, etc. - see 'engine with cover off' photo to come. According to the manual to get the rockers off I need to rotate the crank sharft so that the slot in the cam shaft is pointing backwards - I have taken a photo of this which I'll post separately - I assume this is what they mean? https://cdn.bikechatforums.com/files/slot.jpg |
BEFORE you start messing with the rockers, be aware of two things.
1/ the rocker bosses are held on with the cylinder head retaining bolts. Look at the diagrams. Undo them eight nuts on top of the rocker boss, and there is only three bolts holding the cylinder head onto the barel, and very little attaching barel to block..... Undo then nuts and you have started a complete top end rebuild, and will need new head gasket etc to put it all back together again.
2/ they are low torque fastenings, you need a zero to 40Nm Torque wrench to tighten them back up with.
Actual possition of the cam isn't so important, thats for adjusting the tappets, and aligning the cam chain sproket so you can slide the cam out and remove the cam to lift the head out.
| richjp wrote: | Currently as I said above, I'd just like to get this engine going. Given it's been described as 'a chissel bomb in a glass factory' and you thought this might be due to either the cam chain tensioner never being adjusted and/or huge tappet clearances, I guess I should investigate these first before worrying about the cylinders/pistons/crankshaft etc? Your ideas gratefully received! |
YES....
| richjp wrote: | Showing my complete ignorance once again - would this setup still have the superdream 5 speed gearbox or will they have had to put in a what I imagine was a four speed box when they swapped the current engine in? |
Depends what the engine came from. Its not a CB Super Dream motor, but could be a five speed depending on whather its a CA/CM/CED and teh year & variant...... some had fours some had fives... but even if has a five.... wont, I dont think have the same ratio's in it.
| richjp wrote: | The chain from the starter mortor to the alternator rotor is quite loose - is that nornmal? |
Yes... though whats 'normal' whats usual, and what correct, aren't always one and the same!
| richjp wrote: | The last thing and the only trouble I had yesterday was getting the big inspection cover out of the generator cover. In fact I couldn't - it seems stuck in and someone has tried to move it with a screwdriver and the slot is very worn. Any ideas on how I might get it out? |
Bigger screwdriver or the end of a tyre lever to fill the slot, and gentle persuasion. Might need a little hammer work to reform the edges of the slot.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 21:16 - 20 Jun 2011 Post subject: |
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Richard,
?!?!?!?!?! I think you are on a road to no-where with this right now. I really do.
Project; FIRST thing, project objectives. WHAT do you want OUT of this project?
You already said, you wanted a Dad & Lad 'thing', get lad interested in, and learning 'mechanics'. Great incentive, nothing wrong with that.
BUT, I have already said, these are not cheap or easy bikes to work on. Look at Snowie's pup, THAT was the incentive for that project.
Project cost, to date, and the engine rebuild has not yet been done, and the 'legalities' over and beyond merely getting the bike 'built' has breached TWO AND A HALF THOUSAND POUNDS.....
Ponder that a second.
£2.5K.... looks smaller, doesn't it. £2,500.oo looks 'official'. "A couple of grand...." in formal..... A LOT OF FUCKING MONEY..... reality.
Now, you can get a bike like this to road for a lot less, and I have done so. BUT, project objective is to learn mechanics. And you DONT learn mechanics cutting corners.... you just learn to cut corners.
Ponder that notion a little longer.
Renovating the Pup, bike was stripped to teh frame, every nut and bolt ans washer was undone, every seal bush and bearing was removed, inspected and replaced..... and THAT is where all the money went.
The 'pretty bits', the paint, the decals and the few features like the custom dial fascias behind the speedo and tacho, and the heated grips and the socket for the GPS, were, pretty insignificant ion overall build cost. There's about £200's worth of 'unnecessary' stuff gone into that bike..... doesn't discount the realistic build cost much, does it?
NOW..... starting where you are, with that bike, and THAT engine.
Trying to 'sneak' it in the back door behind the missus's back... you are onto a looser.... you are making the job harder, and even MORE expensive.... which means its even less likely to succeed, or fullfill project objectives.
And if you are pondering buying a head gasket to do 'something' with that engine, now, well..... those 'little' costs are going to start adding up, very quickly, and will take you pretty much no where.
By all means carry on, get bits add hock, and try and sneak it in; BUT more the project drags out, more you try and sneak stuff, less 'impetus' the project will have, more chance for 'mess' to linger, and lads interest to 'wain', and end of the day you'll have an expensive pile of scrap, and no one will get what they hoped, wanted or expected out of it, and all YOU will get is the blame.
Trust me I have tried Dad & Lad projects with most of my kids. And attempted to build three motorbikes with three of them!
Eldest; Honda C50 when he was 16. I ended up doing all the work, and buying all the bits, and all I got was the blame when he thrashed it or crashed it that it HAD to some how be 'my fault'.
Second lad; Moto-Guzzi Trotter moped, when he was 15, intending to build it for when he was 16. He was actually in last year of school, and started work as an aprentice mechanic that summer... got taken to bits, and that was as far as it ever went..... he just couldn't be 'arsed'.
Third lad, only one that actually came to anything, when he was eleven, he found a Mini-Moto I had aquired in bits, in a box, and asked if he could have it.... told him he if he could build it he could, and over the next two years he did..... only for it to get nicked... but that one was the ONLY one that went anywhere... and keeping his enthusiasm 'going' meant I still did an awful lot of the work.... mind he was only twelve!
Now; You need teh missus on side here, and you need the lad on side here. Really, all you want out of the project is time with your lad...... you want that to be 'good' time, and you don't want it to turn sour, which is a real danger, because his enthusiasm will soon turn to 'indulging' you, spending time for the sake of, if HE isn't getting what HE expects out of the project, which, will be a BIKE, something making motorbikie noises he can rev up, and ride!
You REALLY are setting yourself up for a fall with this one......
If you don't have the budget, I have suggested, or that budget 'approved'..... then you will either NOT get it finished, or you will NOT get everything you hope out of it.
So, back to where I started my warnings; BEFORE spending any more time or money on THIS pottential albatross...... what are the alternatives? How ELCE can you achieve your project objectives?
AND since it isn't just YOU involved in this endevour, what are the other 'parties' objectives, hopes, aspirations, or limitations?
I PRESUME that missus doesn't want 'mess' lying around? I also presume that she doesn't want money 'wasted', and she doesn't want you 'pissing around' playing with motorbikes, when there's shelves to be put up, or Ikea to be visited?
I PRESUME, your lad, is more interested in RIDING the finished product, than really getting his hands dirty, building it... and that like many teenagers, anything from a new X-box game, to a girl at school, to the discovery of Historical Re-Enactment societies....
(err... yup... the Ermine Street Guard, Roman Re Enactment Society was the 'thing' that diverted my eldest's attension from fixing his moped! He was busy nicking my hammer and tin snips to make 'authentic roman Sandals... looked a right site in his centurions outfit... with a crash hat, riding off to a re-enactment function, on the C50, I can tell you!?!!!!)
Where was I? Oh yeah! Anything could divert tenn-lads attension and enthusiasm, for twiddling spanners.
Probably the MOST enthusiastic person here is you, and all you really want out of it is this Dad & Lad time, and some kind of shared 'interest'.....
Now; you would more than delight your lad, using the money THIS project is VERY likely to absorb, simply buying him a brand new Yamaha YBR125 on his 17th birthday.....
Would save you a lot of time to visit Ikea, grief and hassle and probably money! Meanwhile you COULD spend Dad & LAD time, playing snooker, or 'something'.....
Is doing A bike, ANY bike really the best way about achieving objectives?
If it IS good, is THIS bike really the best starting point?
Sure you could try and source piece parts to rebuild this incorrect engine to correct spec.... expensive difficult and ultimately, less than ideal. Sure you could rebuild that motor 'as is'.... but lets be realistic, you are looking at spending a couple of hundred quic MINIMUM to take it apart and put it back together, with littke more than new gaskets and seals and a rebore! COULD cost you three or four times that to make it 'good' and all it should be..... And ultimately it STILL wont be the 'propper' engine for the bike, and will deliver at best the 10bhp of a CG single you could have bought complete brand new for HALF what making that heap of junk run, would cost... brand new CG copy engines from China are on e-bay for under £300....... THAT engine, that doesn't belong in that frame could cost you that much JUST to rebuild the block... before sticking exhausts on it, carburettors or trying to make the ignition 'sound'....
It is WELL beyond optimism... to percevere with it. And tryng to percevere with it, 'on the sly' and worse, 'on the cheap'.... you are on a hiding to no where, where no one will be happy, and ALL you will get is the blame from every one elsce becouse they aren't happy with it.
If you MUST do a Super Dream... get another one.... one that AT LEAST has a super dream engine, and is ALL there, and is a viable restoration, and IF you plan on doing it, get the wife on board and get the budget approved, and get some ground rules over space, mess and trips to Ikea.
BUT, I would strongly reccomend, looking at other bikes; bikes taht are NOT so 'difficult' or expensive. A CG125 or a two stroke commuter, if cheap is cheap as must be. Else-wise, looking for something worth more of the cost and effort to do it, and pottentially more inspriing for your lad. Maybe not EVEN a 125, or a road bike.
A Pit bike, or competition dirt bike. OR a 'big bike' for after he has past his tests.
It is much of a much, in the time and effort, and not THAT much different cost wise WHAT bike you 'Do'...... doing THIS one simply becous its there? no, you are coming at it completely from the wrong angle... it's a failure waiting to happen.
Better to eat crow and admit the error NOW and loose whatever you may, scrapping THIS bike as your project now, than wasting however much effort and money, and getting however much grief in recompense, to end up in the same place in six months time, just in poorer graces and lighter of wallet!
Yamaha TZR for a sporty road bike; Yamaha DT-LC for a dirt bike; RSX for a cheap commuter; all two stroke. CG125 for a four stroke. ALL much more viable project propositions. IF you have to do one at all. But either way, you need to have the other parties on board and clear about what the objectives are, what the budget is, and where its going.
Trying to sneak this one in behind SWMBO's back?!!? politic?
You are just making it worse and worse for yourself my freind!
And THAT bike is doing you absolutely NO favours.... ONLY way you can come out of this with ANY grace is IF you pull the fat out the fire and show a good, working bike at the end of it...... AND in short order.
And THAT bike does NOT bode well... and trying to work around its obviouse problems, well, you wont make it any easier.
I dont know how else to put it.
And I'm a bloke with a Super-Dream engine on my kitchen floor, and two cylinder heads on the kitchen work top!
THIS project, is a non starter, and you are deluding yourself insisting on pressing on with it, somehow sure you will 'find a way'?!?!?
I wish you luck, but I REALLY doubt that you will get what you hope for out of it......
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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