Spoked wheel lacing - help needed

[Gazdaman]

So this is for my KE 175 project. I've had the hub and rim powder coated, and I bought a set of new spokes.

So I came to lace it today and let's say it's not gone well.

I've only started the front wheel, so we'll stick with just that at the moment. Here are the photos of the original spoke pattern before I destroyed them.

https://www.gaz-racing.co.uk/images/vehicle_1171.JPG

https://www.gaz-racing.co.uk/images/vehicle_1173.JPG

So I started off working from the diagram.

https://www.gaz-racing.co.uk/images/vehicle_1554.JPG

And got this far:

https://www.gaz-racing.co.uk/images/vehicle_1555.JPG

That's got all of the drum brake side spokes fitted, and it's got all of the clockwise spokes from the other side (they have an angled neck on the spoke. The anti clockwise on the non-drum side are 90 degree necks.

But the trouble is, they just don't quite reach, the nipples fit over the end of the spoke, but not enough to actually screw any thread on.

https://www.gaz-racing.co.uk/images/vehicle_1556.JPG

Like so.

So my thinking is either:

a) It's an adjustment thing and they can be pulled in.
b) I've done something wrong, either with the order, or got the rim on the wrong way round, but I would assume it's symmetrical, it certainly looks it.
c) The spokes are the wrong length

I don't think it's an adjustment thing, because the hub is pretty central in the rim i.e horizontally if the rim was fitted to the bike. And if it were, some of the remaining spokes would fit, and others wouldn't. In this case none of them appear long enough.

b is very plausible, I juts don't know what I've got wrong.

c I'm not sure. The spokes were off eBay, and from a foreign country, but they were listed for my exact model of bike.

Any tips/help is much appreciated. Logically, I'll probably try it with rim the other way round, because that's the only real glaring error I think I could have made. Also, none of the spokes are tight, the nipples are only on by a few threads.

Gaz

[MarJay]

There was an article in CMM a couple of months back about lacing spoked wheels, I'll try to remember to have a look and get back to you.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[truslack]

Place one next to one of the spokes you took out, and see if they are the same length?

When relacing wheels, I find it much easier to remove and replace 1 spoke at a time, makes the job much more pleasant.
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Current: Suzuki RG 125 Gamma, Honda H100, Triumph Tiger 800XC, Suzuki SV650 (minitwin)

[stinkwheel]

There are a lot of videos on bicycle wheel building on youtube. The principle is exactly the same.

Looks to me like you've got it twisted up so the hub is rotated excessively in relation to the rim.

Sheldon Brown is always good for getting to the root of a problem. Here's a very complete article on the subject of bicycle wheel building:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html
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I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[yen_powell]

When I visited a professional wheel builder he had a jig that kept the hub and the rim in the correct position in relation to each other. He also carefully measure the sideways offset of the hub to the rim before dismantling the wheel which doesn't always sit in the middle as you'd expect. It may be that your hub is too far to one side which would make some spokes come up short.
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Blackmail is a nasty word........but not as nasty as phlegm!
XT1200Z and a DR350 in bits

[MarJay]

Hi Gaz, I've found a couple of issues of CMM with articles on wheelbuilding, however its a 3 part jobbie and I don't have the first issue with me (I put a load of stuff in storage recently).

It does seem however that the very first thing they did was build a wheelbuilding jig to hold the rim in place. They used the old wheel to do this, and they laid it down on a board and screwed some smaller pieces of wood over the rim to hold it in place.

From what they say it sounds like that is pretty important to the process...
____________________
British beauty: Triumph Street Triple R; Loony stroker: KR1S; Track fun: GSXR750 L1; Commuter Missile: GSX-S1000F; Cheap project: CBR900RR FireBlade
Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.

[Gazdaman]

See my assumption (correct or not) is that when I do the spokes in opposite directions on one side of the hub would get the hub to the right position of 'twistedness' in relation to the rim.

And then if I left the spokes nice and loose (which I did) there should still be enough play to join up the spokes on the other side.

The lateral position of the hub is going to be a bit of guess work. The hub does have a concave indent that I suspect will need to be true with the rim, but I can true that up afterwards.

The annoying thing is that I couldn't replace one spoke at a time because I needed to strip the hub and rim off completely in order to get them powder coated. And they were in such a state that they couldn't be removed.

What I will do next is remove all the spokes and make exactly sure what's what length. If some are a slightly different length that'll make all the difference.

Failing that, I'll try and see if I can fit the spokes that don't fit, first. If they aren't long enough to fit without any other forces, then it's a spoke length issue.

Gaz

[Vincent]

It's very difficult to get the hub central, not only in relation to the centre of the wheel but also positioned right with the centre of the rim. Vurtualy impossible without a jig I would have thought. The only times I've done mine is when replacing just the spokes where I've just done one at a time.

Get it off to Central wheels

If you need more photos, I've got an old KE125 in the lockup which should be the same.

[Gazdaman]

Vincent, that would be very useful. The part I'm interested in is which spokes don't have a 90 degree bend. Some of them have a more relaxed angle to the head, and I'm not sure where they're supposed to go.

The KE125 is the same too btw.

I have found that of the 27 90 degree spokes, 9 of them are slightly shorter. So chances are I've got the wrong length spokes in the wrong places.

Gaz

[MarJay]

[Gazdaman]

[Vincent]

[Gazdaman]

Thanks for the offer buddy, that's proper dedication. I'm 80% sure I know how it should go, and even then, it won't take much trial and error to work it out.

But I appreciate the thought. And beware, now I know you have one, I'll be messaging like "Where does this bit go?".

Gaz

[Vincent]

[Vincent]

BTW; I've got the 125 workshop manual here and there are a few pointers about replacing spokes and centering the rim. Any use?

[Gazdaman]

Definitely of use. I'm aware they're quite different but there are a lot of interchangeable parts.
The bit in the manual would be useful!

Parts have been surprisingly ok. I even got a nos 2t oil pump and headlights. Then a rev counter from a 125. Which hopefully is usable, part number is very similar.
I do need an ignition switch, which is tough to get for the 1976 model.

And a decent exhaust is like gold dust.

Luckily my bike is mostly complete and ebay hopefully handles the rest.

Gaz

[Gazdaman]

Tried it again today

The relaxed headed spokes go on the inside of the drum brake side, then the shorter 90 degree headed ones go on the outside.

Then the 18 longest 90 degree headed spokes go on the speedo drive side.

All went together nicely, and I built a little jig to true it up when my key comes.

Thanks for the help guys.

Turns out it was option b, I'd fucked up.

Gaz