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bugsy46
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Im curious......... Reply with quote

I was thinking back the other day to when I bought my first bike 4 years ago cagiva mito (brand new). I then read a post about how delicate you have to be when running the bike in.

So to the curiosity of my subject we begin..........

Firstly, I have worked for a bike dealership as a technician with no full license to undertake road tests when doing the pdi. It makes me wonder if any technician actually revs the bike over the running in limit when out on a road test! What do you guys reckon? Could be a way for the dealership to make some money hay?!!!

Secondly,

I also remember my CBT. Now it was my first bike and I didnt know anything about running in as the bike came in the dealers van to the training area! Being excited I give the bike some good revs to begin with! But thinking back to when we were on the road with the instructors I was scared to change up and held it in high revs in low gears for ages!!! Embarassed Do you folks reckon the dealer or the instructor should cast up the importance of running in a 2 stroke motorcycle?

Your thoughts would be much appreciated

thanks Wink
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Rory
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PostPosted: 16:36 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some people advocate a hard running in at varying engne speeds, rather than the kid gloves approach, and I (think I) agree. The manufactures can't recommend a hard-running in because they'd be liable to get sued if someone crashed their new bike. More info at https://www.mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rory wrote:
Some people advocate a hard running in at varying engne speeds, rather than the kid gloves approach, and I (think I) agree. The manufactures can't recommend a hard-running in because they'd be liable to get sued if someone crashed their new bike. More info at https://www.mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm


How would the manufacture be sued for that? The same sort of run-in procedures are suggested for cars as well you know...
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Rory
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

If a manufacturer tells you to take it easy, and you go banzai and crash, it's in no way their fault. If they told you to rev to the redline in every gear, someone would come a cropper and the factory would get sued. It's about limiting their exposure.

... I think Smile
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 18:39 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

If thats the case, then why don't they just not suggest a run-in procedure at all. Let the customer do what they want with the new machine... If it doesnt matter.

That site annoys me. No-one else says the same thing. It is a poorly made site, and he always refers to his gay "secret brake in" procedure. Well its not secret anymore, lol. Laughing I just dont buy it. Its like he askes you to subscribe then never he updates the site...
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Rory
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PostPosted: 18:53 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

I won't deny that it looks horrible Smile

The guy doesn't make any attempt to deny the fact general consensus goes against him (in fact he points it out himself). His point of view though is that just because he's running contrary to popular opinion (and the manufacturers themselves), that does not in-and-of itself make him wrong. Some of the arcticles, culminating in the rather-technical article 24, "Circular Logic" explain why he believes it to be the case, and having considered his argument, I can see the merit in it. I've never had an opportunity to try it out however.

Ignoring the break-in stuff, he makes interesting points about thinking for yourself, and not accepting other opinions for the wrong reaons. The recommended break-in is a gentle one, yet there is anecdotal evidence that not only do riders get better performance from a hard break-in, but that the factories (bike and car), thrash their engines before selling them. If you take the latter to be true, you're faced with the question of why a manufacturer would recommend one thing and do another. The only answer I can think of is that the gentle break-in is not for the engine's benefit.

Unfortunately this is one of those "holy war" topics, which can't really be settled either way... Brick Wall
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah but all the stuff you have said is exactly the things he talks about... I need a 3rd party's views/evidence. I cannot find anyone Crying or Very sad

Ah well my bike is long past any run-in procedure, and i dont think i will ever buy a brand new bike, so i wont let it bother me too much. Wink
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Rory
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PostPosted: 19:57 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed! Thumbs Up
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Smile
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Scooby
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PostPosted: 20:08 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

These days 'running in' isn't as vital as it used to be. Brand new 4 stroke bikes these days can quite happily be thrashed from new and apart from the odd exception, you're not going to have any problems so long as you service it regularly. 2 strokes are a little bit more of a concern, mainly due to the aluminium piston expanding at a much faster rate than the cast iron barrel, but still, not as vital as it used to be.
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tgabber
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PostPosted: 20:32 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose one thing to be said for a gentle running in is that if you're unlucky enough to have a bike that's got a manufacturing defect it's better to find out at 50mph and 6,000 rpm than at 90 and 10,000 rpm!
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 23:15 - 28 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

My feeling is that running them in properly will lead to a longer engine life, although thrashing them in is likely to land up with wider clearances which are probably better for performance.

2 stroke barrels and pistons are pretty much a muchness with 4 stroke ones. Similar piston material, and both will use either cast iron or plated bores. 2 strokes do have irty great holes in the barrel which give the rings a harder time.

Engine life wise the makers probably do not care too much as by the time it is of any relevance it is several owners old and well out of warrenty. Same applies to cars. When we had problems with the Clio as 50000 miles / years old Renaults comment was pretty much "What do you expect on such an old and high mileage car".

What is worth noting is that the makers might well have used a different oil when thevehicle is new to enable it to run in. For this reason doing an early oil change can be worse for the engine.

All the best

Keith
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 13:14 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Hi

My feeling is that running them in properly will lead to a longer engine life, although thrashing them in is likely to land up with wider clearances which are probably better for performance.

What is worth noting is that the makers might well have used a different oil when thevehicle is new to enable it to run in. For this reason doing an early oil change can be worse for the engine.

All the best

Keith


Yep i'd agree completely with that. Personally i'd rather have a more reliable engine with 1 or 2 bhp down, than a thrashed engine from new which will be less reliable and a slight increase in engine power...

Surely wont the clearances be widened eventually, releasing that bit more power anyway, just later on in the engines life?

And the 2nd point, if they do have a "run-in" oil, the key is to change not too soon, and therefore not get the best run-in and not change too late and get the lower quality of oil in the engine for too long/longer than it needs to.
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Rory
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claud 14.7 to 1 wrote:

Yep i'd agree completely with that. Personally i'd rather have a more reliable engine with 1 or 2 bhp down, than a thrashed engine from new which will be less reliable and a slight increase in engine power...


Without meaning to keep banging on about this... Brick Wall Smile

The argument is that the harding run-in gives a better seal, thereby lessening an escape of exhaust gasses past the piston rings, thereby lessening contamination of the engine oil. This would actually increase reliability. Again, I can't verify if this is actually true, but it makes sense to me.
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybey, but the increaded load will wear out the rings more, so for the short term they will be a good seal and give good power outputs, but in the long run they will have worn faster and more, and maybey not in such a gradual way...

Well thats what i think anyway. Plus you have all the other points which could possible benefit from a slower run-in procedure like bearings and such like.

Anyway they run in race engines "slowly" as well so they cant be wrong.


Last edited by Claud 14.7 to 1 on 17:12 - 29 Aug 2004; edited 1 time in total
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TheShaggyDA
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PostPosted: 16:55 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the sound of the "hard run in", but I don't think I could ever bring myself to do it. The pictoral evidence is quite convincing, but there's this voice at the back of my head going "you don't want to do that...."

Maybe when I've got a few grand to throw away, I'll give it a try.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 17:39 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm getting an old gsx250 in a few days that I'm going to mess around with. If I give it a rebuild, which is possible, I'll probably give it a hard run in and see what happens.
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Rory
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PostPosted: 19:29 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claud 14.7 to 1 wrote:
Plus you have all the other points which could possible benefit from a slower run-in procedure like bearings and such like.

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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 19:43 - 29 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe what about it, Smile ^^^^^^^^
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 30 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've been slowly running mine in, had no trouble with it so far (except crashing and having a five week hiatus Embarassed ). One thing to note though, having just changed the oil at 250 miles, it was a black sludge, full of rubbish. Once I'd put nice new Castrol in, it not only idled better, but ran much more smoothly and sounded much less rough. Keeping that oil in till 500 miles? Shocked Thumbs Down
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 00:44 - 30 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Mcshaggis, im not 100% on the exact change oil period. 500m is an educated guestimate. If you change it too early you risk putting too "good" an oil in that wont be as effective as the first lower grade oil for run-in process.

Its up to manufactures recomendations, i'd say. Always best to check.
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carvell
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PostPosted: 01:41 - 30 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every 500 miles? That's insane. I'd be doing it every 4 weeks if that was the service interval. Some people would be doing it every 1-2 weeks.

A few thousand is a more realistic oil change interval.
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 01:55 - 30 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

That was after 500 miles when you're breaking it in, rather than just general use. So long as you use non-synthetic mineral oil when you're running it in, there shouldn't be a problem from what I've read. I've been gradually increasing the revs, load and gear over the past 250 miles; now just broaching the beginnings of fifth, and I'm not red lining it at all.

Breaking in 2t engines I don't know much about, they want fully synth once they're broken in, but super slippery oil's not good for breaking in with, so... ? Confused
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Claud 14.7 to 1
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PostPosted: 08:57 - 30 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

mchaggis wrote:
That was after 500 miles when you're breaking it in, rather than just general use. So long as you use non-synthetic mineral oil when you're running it in, there shouldn't be a problem from what I've read. I've been gradually increasing the revs, load and gear over the past 250 miles; now just broaching the beginnings of fifth, and I'm not red lining it at all.

Breaking in 2t engines I don't know much about, they want fully synth once they're broken in, but super slippery oil's not good for breaking in with, so... ? Confused


If thats what its like for your bike, then Thumbs Up Very Happy .Sounds ok. I cannot commnet on 2Ts. Neutral

Interesting to know the condition of the oil after only 250 run-in miles, though... Shocked
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Rory
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 30 Aug 2004    Post subject: Reply with quote

Claud 14.7 to 1 wrote:
Hehe what about it, Smile ^^^^^^^^


Acht, bollocks Doh!

Claud 14.7 to 1 wrote:
Plus you have all the other points which could possible benefit from a slower run-in procedure like bearings and such like.


What benefits to the bearings do you get, is what I meant to ask?
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