SHE LIVES!

[dextersaurus]

So i got a new sump for my CBR off a chap who was breaking his hornet, and got that fitted today, along with the freshly painted downpipes.

Thing is, it's buring a bit of oil...

It's fine when sitting idling, but when revved i'm getting some blue smoke.

Any ideas why?

Also, the camchain is making quite a racket... but it's using a spring loaded one that works on oil pressure, so due to the bike sitting with no oil in it for 3 weeks, might need a going over.

Anyway, why would it be burning oil?

Hope it's nothing serious... bike's only got 7k miles, and was fine before the carbs blocked up and started pissing petrol everywhere.

Cheers

Dunc

[Chalky.]

[Casper]

You got enough oil in it? Is this oil or water cooled? If oil you will have draind the oil cooler when sitting without a sump. You been out for a ride or just idle in the garde? could just be dripped oil on the pipe you are looking at or in it.

[dextersaurus]

No, no.

It's 3/4 of the way up the dipstick between min and max.

Dunc

[dextersaurus]

i'll have a look again tomorrow as it's dark, might stretch to a new can of oil, and do another change... see if it helps.

i've not actually had it moving yet, just started and let it idle. i'll take it for a short run at some point and see if it helps any.

Cheers

Dunc

[Casper]

I am just thinking if the sump off but still had the exhaust on then drips of oil may have run into it. Your downpipes, if you are using that shit halfords paint it starts to burn off straight away and the painted part where the four goes into one you may just be looking at the paint inside that area burning off.

[dextersaurus]

The smoke is coming straight out the exhaust though, not from the paint....

So it's definitely coming from the engine, not a drip on the downpipes.

Dunc

[dextersaurus]

Looks like it's the valve stem seals.

I'll drop the engine next month and replace them....

Meh, was hoping to get it back on the road this week.

Oh well. CAR IT IS THEN.

Dunc

[Blau Zedong]

[dextersaurus]

[Robby]

Ride it a bit first. The seals may, if you're lucky, swell a bit with some oil on them after a few heat cycles.

[dextersaurus]

Well....

After some thinking, i just realised that the tank is actually on reserve, and i'm pretty sure al that's in the tank is redex at the moment.

Redex will smoke, but i'm not sure it'll burn with a blue tint to it....

I'm not gonna run it again for the time being anyway, don't wnat to damage it any more than i may already have, and i'll get some petrol to fill the tank...

HOPEFULLY that should sort it.

Cheers

Dunc

[0l0dom0l0]

[Stalk]

Did you lay the bike on it's side to change the sump? Is it possible that some oil may have seeped through the rings whilst laid over? (seen it happen)
Give it a good run, you don't need to thrash it, just normal operating temp will burn off any excess oil.
Good luck
Hope this helps
Stalk

[Serendipity]

When you had the oil leak that required the replacement of the sump didn’t you say that you went for a ride and it was running rough, before you noticed the leak? You posted a picture of the whole drain plug area smashed off. Does that mean that you took the bike for a spin with absolutely no oil in it at all? I know CBRs are tough, but that’s not going to do it any favours.
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2016 CBF1000F - Commuter heaven | 1994 CBR600FR - Awaiting defibrillation

[MickC]

This is from:
https://www.cb750c.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=9997 (you may have to register to view the original post - its free if you do)

It's a way of doing valve seals without having to dismantle the top end:

Bucko wrote:
I successfully replaced all the valve seals in my 1100 without removing the head. I used the smaller of the two Lisle ‘plunger style’ tools pictured here: https://www.amazon.com/Lisle-36050-Keeper-Remover-Installer/dp/B0012S61IO. I sent an email to Lisle telling them what I wanted to do and asking which tool I should use and they recommended the one above. I’m not sure why the smaller of the two tools is not available as a stand-alone product but it doesn’t’ seem to be – it’s only available in the kit. There were several tool options that purported to do the same thing but since I didn’t know for sure that it would work, I purchased the cheapest one I could find and it worked just fine.

Replacing all 16 seals took about two hours (not including engine and cam removal of course) and that was being very careful and inspecting each bore carefully. If I did it again, I would expect that it would take less than an hour.

Here’s the method I used:

(Here's a link to a video on how the tool works - not my video, or the tool that I used, but it will give you an idea of how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFTaeu4GIPo)

I lowered the desired piston and pushed 20 ~30 cm’s of clear plastic tubing into the cylinder (trying to get it to ‘ring’ around the piston crown), then raised the piston until it stopped. Some folks have used rope for this trick. I couldn't find any suitable rope in the garage so I used he battery hose (which I don't need any more since I have an AGM battery). Since you're not actually pressing on the valves when you use the tool, you don't need a lot of pressure on the piston pushing up on the plastic tubing - only enough to keep the valves from falling down.

I cut the bottom off a 35mm film container and split the side and used it as a valve bore protector.

Plugged everything in sight with rags

I removed the bucket and shim with a magnet and inserted the bore protector.

Using the removal section of the above tool, press down on the valve retainer with moderate pressure to remove the retainer and keepers, both of which will be grabbed by the magnet in the tool It’s hard to convey what ‘moderate’ means – but in this context, it means significantly less pressure than required to put the keepers back in.

Using a small pair of needle nose pliers, remove the keepers from the tool and insert back into the retainer (the strong magnet in the tool necessitates the use of the needle nose pliers most of the time)

Remove the springs - taking care to ensure the spring seats don’t come out too – they sometimes stick to the oil on the bottom of the spring and need to be re-inserted.

Using a pair of long needle nose pliers with serrated noses (if that’s the right term?), carefully remove the seal. If you have a small set of valve seal removal pliers, this would be a breeze (next time I do this job, I’ll have a set). In my case, this was the most time consuming part of the job, not because it was so difficult, but because I took my time to avoid damaging the valves and guides, or losing the valve seal springs. On the seals that I found installed in the head, the small wire ‘spring’ that wraps around the base of the seal to ensure a tight fit with the guide, was so small, it was barely visible (admittedly I can see worth crap), but I had to be extra careful when I pulled the seals out, that the wires came out too (probably not a good idea to have any floating around in the valve train). In almost all cases, the wire came out by itself first, before the seal came out. In my case the original seals (don’t know if they were original to the bike) were not brittle, in fact they were the opposite, gummy even. Fortunately, they weren’t so gummy that I had to scrape any of them off the guide, but I did have to go fishing for a few pieces that were mangled due to us of the needle nose pliers

Press a new, oil dipped Viton valve seal over the valve

Using an appropriate sized deep socket, press the valve seal over the guide. Only thumb pressure required. It’s obvious when the seal ‘clicks’ on.

Reinstall the springs, taking care to ensure the tightly wound coils are facing down (toward the piston).

Place the retainer with the keepers in it back on to the springs

Using the installation section of the above tool (inserts into the removal section), press down hard to seat the keepers into the valve and retainer. It took me a while to figure this part out. I thought that it wasn’t working, then by playing with a loose valve I have, I figured out that I wasn’t pressing hard enough. I’ve used this type of tool before, but it was on an automotive engine with a single spring, and it was a while ago - It takes a lot more pressure on th tool to seat the keeprs the 1100F engine. I put a folded cloth in my palm (cause it would hurt my hand if I didn’t) then laid my body weight on my hand/arm to get the required pressure (while keeping the tool in line with the valve. There is an audible click when the keepers install – it’s very satisfying! It seemed to take a lot more pressure to seat the exhaust keepers than the intake keepers. Doesn’t make sense as the springs are the same (I think). Perhaps just a better angle for pushing on the intake side when the engine is sitting flat (i.e. top is sloping towards the front)

Using the removal tool on the newly installed retainer, give the retainer a mild whack with a plastic hammer (less than a whack really) to ensure the keepers are properly seated.

Remove the bore protector

Dip the bucket and shim in oil and place in the head

Repeat for 3 remaining valves for that piston

Take large swig of beer (you don’t want to do this too many times before completing all valves)

Release piston, remove tubing, then move to the next piston



Notes
Having the head on the engine makes this tool easy to use. Because of the pressure required to install the keepers using the tool, it might be tricky to use on the head while it's sitting on the bench. Might just be a matter of blocking off the head so it doesn’t move. All head movement issues aside, using this tool would be much, much, much faster and simpler than dinking around with the old tried and true “C” clamp method, but if that’s what you trust, go for it.

Even if you wouldn’t use this tool to install the keepers, it makes removing them so easy; it would be a welcome addition to any tool box.

In closing…..
So, I’m still fixing things and haven’t put the motor back in the freshly touched up frame (contemplating cam chains now) so I can’t comment on how everything has worked out – that’s yet to be seen, but I don’t’ expect any problems at this point, at least, I don’t expect any problems related to the valve seal job (lord knows: there tons of other shit that will fail in the project yet). One could argue that it’s a bit nuts to have the engine out of the frame and not take the head off. I don’t necessarily disagree! It's just that this motor is new to me and I don't have a good feeling for what needs to be done to it to freshen it up. I did compression and leak down tests and they booth looked exceptional but it smoked on startup like it was a prop in a war movie – a pretty clear indication that the valve seals were gone, but everything else seems good. I didn’t want to remove the head and all the work that goes along with that only to find that there was nothing wrong. After I put a few miles on this engine, I may decide that I want to get into the engine after all – but I’ll make that call when I actually ride it and have a feeling for how it’s running. I can look at motor disassembly next winter if things are worse than they appear.

I have a low mileage 900 that runs really nicely but it too blows some smoke. I wouldn’t ever even consider changing the seals if that means having to crack the head, but now that I know this method works, when I get a chance, I’ll eagerly pull the motor, touch up the frame and bit, swap in new seals, and shove the motor back in.

Hope this is useful.


Useful? Damn that is just freakin' EXCELLENT!!!!

This thread is locked, please discuss it over here or elsewhere...
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[dextersaurus]

Cheers guys. Might just be the carbs then. Mot is on wednesday so i'll take it for a blat up the bypass on the way to the garage. Not really expecting it to pass at the moment, so it'll give me some pointers at what needs done. Worth 30 quid on something I missed. The oil leak when I took it for a run was a couple drips every few seconds onto the exhaust. It still had oil in it when I got back, as I went to undo the sump bolt to take a better look and it snapped. So it wasn't run without oil. I'll do a change and take it for a run if it passes it's mot, and if it hasn't sorted after that i'll do the seals. Cheers for the advice guys.

Dunc

[dextersaurus]

Cheers guys. Might just be the carbs then. Mot is on wednesday so i'll take it for a blat up the bypass on the way to the garage. Not really expecting it to pass at the moment, so it'll give me some pointers at what needs done. Worth 30 quid on something I missed. The oil leak when I took it for a run was a couple drips every few seconds onto the exhaust. It still had oil in it when I got back, as I went to undo the sump bolt to take a better look and it snapped. So it wasn't run without oil. I'll do a change and take it for a run if it passes it's mot, and if it hasn't sorted after that i'll do the seals. Cheers for the advice guys.

Dunc

[dextersaurus]

Got it all put back together today.

https://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/316925_2142432134108_1645368025_2036120_1097591_n.jpg

Battery was completely dead, and while checking the bits and bobs to see why it was draining so quickly, i found that someone (not me) had joined up the remote start on the alarm. to the positive earth... which meant the alarm was shorting out the battery and causing it to just drain completely.

It's now fixed, and on the trickle charger.

Tomorrow shall be the last chance to fix any niggles it has, and i'll take it for a run before dropping it off tomorrow night.

Here's hoping all is well now

Dunc