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st3v3
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PostPosted: 07:48 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: DVLA/Insurance/Sorn Laws Reply with quote

This thread is pretty much for my own documentation as well as any input from peoples that may help people in future on this subject.

My dilema:

I own 2 cars, both shitboxes sat on the street while uninsured but taxed.

Legally you now apparently have to have vehicles insured to be on the road taxed unless they're SORN'd.

So I have 2 cars causing no harm sat on the street obstructing nothing, although I can't insure either because all insurance companies I've spoken to have asked for proof of my licence (for convictions etc) and I don't get mine back until the middle of January.

DVLA letter came yesterday saying my 306 tax is showing uninsured on askMID and I now owe a 100quid fine and can SORN it or let them take it away. I called them, informed them and they will only take an 'appeal' in writing. Great.

So since they've taken my licence I can't insure, I can't SORN because where they are on the street is the only space I have for them, until they're sold and driven away. Any tips...? Thumbs Up
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 07:51 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Re: DVLA/Insurance/Sorn Laws Reply with quote

st3v3 wrote:
I own 2 cars, both shitboxes sat on the street while uninsured but taxed.

Legally you now apparently have to have vehicles insured to be on the road taxed unless they're SORN'd.


You always needed insurance to park vehicles on the road.

Insure in a parents name or scrap them and pay the penalty or it will get messy.
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Spangle2k4
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PostPosted: 07:58 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Re: DVLA/Insurance/Sorn Laws Reply with quote

st3v3 wrote:
So I have 2 cars causing no harm sat on the street obstructing nothing, although I can't insure either because all insurance companies I've spoken to have asked for proof of my licence (for convictions etc) and I don't get mine back until the middle of January.


I assume you're saying you don't currently have a licence (i.e. you lost it for a driving offence)? I would have thought you would find an insurer who will cover the cars even though you can't drive them; presumably you're saying that they are not interested? Do any of the price comparison websites allow you to say you have no licence (in the licence type drop-down)?

If you really can't insure the cars then you have no choice but to move them (illegally...) to an off-road location so that you can declare them SORN.

If you really can't insure the cars and there is absolutely nowhere that you can keep them off-road then the only options I see are to SORN them and keep them on the street anyway or sell them.

They'll soon have no tax either as you can't tax a car without insurance...

Edit: Or do as sickpup says and get a friend to insure them!
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anthony_r6
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PostPosted: 08:01 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Re: DVLA/Insurance/Sorn Laws Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
st3v3 wrote:
I own 2 cars, both shitboxes sat on the street while uninsured but taxed.

Legally you now apparently have to have vehicles insured to be on the road taxed unless they're SORN'd.


You always needed insurance to park vehicles on the road.

Insure in a parents name or scrap them and pay the penalty or it will get messy.


I thought this to be the case - but couldn't recall where I'd actually seen it being stated.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that there is case law that just keeping a vehicle on a road requires it to be insured (what if it rolls down a hill or catches fire?) although it's before Google O'clock. Anyone?

However, I'm going to note that the actual wording is:

Road Traffic Act 1988 wrote:

143 Users of motor vehicles to be insured or secured against third-party risks.
(1)Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act—
(a)a person must not use a motor vehicle on a road or other public place unless there is in force in relation to the use of the vehicle by that person such a policy of insurance or such a security in respect of third party risks as complies with the requirements of this Part of this Act


Since Plod are now so keen on nabbing us for particular uses of vehicles - commuting, carrying pillions - it seems a bit off that not using it requires insurance.

However, that's a "see you in court" argument, if those cars are spotted on the road without insurance then they're liable to be seized and you could be facing a prosecution.

Get them insured any way that you can, or be prepared to lawyer up.

As to the demand for a bribe, be aware that it'll double up to £100 per vehicle. I don't know what you were thinking by contacting them, that will only encourage them.

Providing that you insure or move them off road and SORN, I'd go ahead and ignore it. I did, never heard any more about it.
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st3v3
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PostPosted: 08:50 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

They're worth better part of 400quid each and scrap value is a shade over 150 and i dont see why I should lose nearly 500quid when they're sat causing no harm.

Batteries are off both, can't implode and kill kittens without local oiks involved.

Just emailed these https://bradsure.schemeserve.com/GetQuote/Default.aspx
who quoted me 118 a year for 'driveway cover' for cars not in use, asking if I need a licence to buy cover.

Love it, even when we're not licenced insurance companies screw us over. Confused how many back handers...

And na, GoCompare for one don't have a 'no licence' type option.

Edit:
Quote:
How does this law affect a vehicle used only in the summer?
If you have a vehicle that is still taxed but not insured, you could face a penalty. This includes vintage and classic cars, motorbikes and motor homes – all vehicles that people sometimes leave uninsured for part of the year. If this applies to you, you need to return the tax disc on a V14 (including nil value discs) and declare SORN at the same time.
So the best deal we get is paying a premium of which half the cover might only ever be used..
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symonh2000
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PostPosted: 09:00 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you no friends or relatives locally with a free driveway or off street parking?
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st3v3
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PostPosted: 10:17 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, I had stored 1 at a mates place a while ago but he's moved to Norfolk last month; my dad has his car on the drive and the nearest family are 45miles away.

I was trying to keep hold of the 306 for when I could drive it again so I had a cage for work and errands but I guess it'll just have to go. Crying or Very sad

Space for a bike. Neutral
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's a shitter, but since you weren't fussed about insuring them, why not just SORN them as well? Might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb.
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pay the fine, then sorn them and buy a couple of car covers from halfords and put them over them. It'll stop the DVLA cars reading your number plate on their patrols and will buy you a bit of time to find an off-road place for them.

I've got a car that's on a SORN atm pending MOT, got nowhere to park it off-road so it's in a free-for-all kerbside parking space, got a cover on it and took the licence plates off too for good measure. Been there almost three weeks and not had any problems. Sorted.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Pay the fine

Pay the what? Shocked

Vracktal wrote:
buy a couple of car covers from halfords

Now, that's sneaky smart. Thumbs Up
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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st3v3
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
Pay the fine
Good plan, excepting that bit.

I rang them to ask them 'professionally', what should I do? ...and they just didn't care. So I don't, and I'm not paying a penny.
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know it feels like extortion having to pay the DVLA when imho you did nothing wrong, but unfortunately the DVLA will get nasty and take you to court over it as they love to do, and then argue that you broke the letter of the law- and even though the law is stupid in this regard, the judge would still side with them.
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Bomberman
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

st3v3 wrote:

Just emailed these https://bradsure.schemeserve.com/GetQuote/Default.aspx
who quoted me 118 a year for 'driveway cover' for cars not in use, asking if I need a licence to buy cover.

Can't help but notice that says 'driveway' cover. I'd be surprised if you were insured for on street by that.
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P.addy
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
I know it feels like extortion having to pay the DVLA when imho you did nothing wrong, but unfortunately the DVLA will get nasty and take you to court over it as they love to do, and then argue that you broke the letter of the law- and even though the law is stupid in this regard, the judge would still side with them.


They are great fun in court...

Tail between legs etc Thumbs Up
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
I know it feels like extortion having to pay the DVLA when imho you did nothing wrong, but unfortunately the DVLA will get nasty and take you to court over it

They dropped it with me. I had two bikes uninsured but not SORNed for 6 months, and received the nastygram reminder, the "pay us £50" then "pay us £100" demands and ignored them.

Haven't heard anything for a year now.

Vracktal wrote:
as they love to do, and then argue that you broke the letter of the law- and even though the law is stupid in this regard, the judge would still side with them.

Depends. sickpup tore them a new one in court over declaring SORN using the Interpretations Act. However, the continuous insurance offence tries to do an end run around that by requiring that "evidence is adduced that is sufficient to raise an issue with respect to [the defence]". What that means in practice will be up to Magistrates to decide - it could go either way if you note that the DVLA don't obtain so much as proof of posting, let alone recorded delivery of their blackmail letters.

Worst case though, just offer them a bribe at the courtroom door. They're just after money, they don't give a snot whether you get convicted of an offence and put swill in the general trough.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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st3v3
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PostPosted: 15:16 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bomberman wrote:
st3v3 wrote:

Just emailed these https://bradsure.schemeserve.com/GetQuote/Default.aspx
who quoted me 118 a year for 'driveway cover' for cars not in use, asking if I need a licence to buy cover.

Can't help but notice that says 'driveway' cover. I'd be surprised if you were insured for on street by that.
Me too, but that's the best benchmark I can find and I'm hoping they do say no, then when DVLA get me up in court I can plead not guilty to not having any insurance and this time actually be expecting a reasonable outcome.

It was a silly law brought in and lazily only covers mainstream uses and expectation; if I send my tax disc back now and keep it where it is but SORN'd it isn't off the road, so I'm assuming they can come and take it regardless?
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Shinigami
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

fook, this reminds me i need to sorn the hornet...
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stuartt
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PostPosted: 15:50 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've stopped using 1 of my bikes as i don't have the cash to insure it at the mo so it's just lying in my shed .
it has 1 yrs tax on it , am i meant to sorn it ?
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Bomberman
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PostPosted: 16:01 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's fine if it's taxed mate.

edit; added 'It's' for clarity Very Happy And further edit to suggest you read further Very Happy
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Last edited by Bomberman on 16:20 - 04 Oct 2012; edited 2 times in total
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map
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PostPosted: 16:02 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

stuartt wrote:
i've stopped using 1 of my bikes as i don't have the cash to insure it at the mo so it's just lying in my shed .
it has 1 yrs tax on it , am i meant to sorn it ?

To follow the rules, yes.
Rules/guidelines say to SORN the bike and get a refund on the tax.
Vehicles now must either be SORN and off the road or insured.

Then when you get insurance you can ride it for MOT (if required) and then get road tax (I know, I know, it's really Vehicle Exercise Duty* Wink ) again.


I find it a PITA as now can't ride another bike without it getting insurance, so popping a bike for an MOT is a not straightforward. Just re-insured lad's bike yet it fails MOT and now don't know if worth repair so will lose out on insurance money back with the cancel administration fee rape/scam.

HTH Thumbs Up

* I know it's spelt wrong, for the hard of understanding it's meant to be a joke.
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Last edited by map on 16:06 - 04 Oct 2012; edited 1 time in total
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stuartt
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PostPosted: 16:03 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

ok , thanks . i'll go in to glasgow & sorn it tomoro .
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Bomberman
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:

To follow the rules, yes.
Rules/guidelines say to SORN the bike and get a refund on the tax.
Vehicles now must either be SORN and off the road or insured.

Hm, live and learn. So what exactly would/could they do if it's off road and taxed? Surely you can't be done for no insurance on private (your own) property?
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map
Mr Calendar



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PostPosted: 16:14 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bomberman wrote:
map wrote:

To follow the rules, yes.
Rules/guidelines say to SORN the bike and get a refund on the tax.
Vehicles now must either be SORN and off the road or insured.
Hm, live and learn. So what exactly would/could they do if it's off road and taxed? Surely you can't be done for no insurance on private (your own) property?

From the direct.gov.uk site
direct.gov.uk wrote:
The vehicle insurance law - don't be caught out

If you're the registered keeper of a vehicle, it must be insured at all times.

The exceptions are:

if you have made a SORN for the vehicle
if your vehicle has been kept off-road since before SORN came into force on 31 January 1998 – unless it was brought back into use
if your vehicle is recorded as stolen, passed or sold to the motor trade or between registered keepers
if your vehicle is recorded scrapped or permanently exported by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing (DVLA)

Although that site doesn't quote the actual law statute (and I can't search atm).

HTH Thumbs Up
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Bomberman
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PostPosted: 16:20 - 04 Oct 2012    Post subject: Reply with quote

map wrote:

HTH Thumbs Up

Indeed, ta Thumbs Up
Odd that they'd deny themselves the possiblilty of people paying tax whilst not using the vehicle though Confused
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