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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: What a waste. Reply with quote

Heard this on the news today and to be honest it sickened me.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20968076

Its estimated that half of the worlds food produced is thrown away. 50% of what we produce just gone into the bin. I dont know about you guys, and I am not the biggest eco warrior in the world but I think its sickening that in this day and age that people are starving to death at a (still) shocking rate while we are throwing half of our food into the bin.

Quote:
The study also found that up to 30% of vegetables in the UK were not harvested because of their physical appearance


Do you know what the difference in taste is between this tomato:

https://njlhealthandbeauty.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/tomato.jpg

And this tomato?

https://playground.iconnet.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/home-grown-tomatoe2.jpg

Thats right. None at all. But because the big companies wont buy them they are not getting picked. Same deal with Cucumbers. When I was a kid they came in all shapes and sizes, now they have to be uniform. The big companies reject 3 out of every 10 vegetables grown because they do not look the correct size and shape for them to sell.

What a waste.

Theres homeless shelters, refuge centers, and charity run homes all crying out for more money to help care for people. Couldnt some of this weird shaped food that the big companies refuse to by be used to help them in this country?

We pay farmers not to produce food and couldnt that money be used to help distribute food around the world? I mean how much does it cost to dispose of this "waste" food each year? Bound to be in the millions. Is it not cheaper to send it freight to third world countries where the Red Cross are already trying to feed the masses?

Its estimated that someone dies from hunger related illness ever 3.5 seconds and over 6 million children die each year from starvation and yet we produce enough food to feed the world. Surely the cost of paying farmers not to produce food combined with the cost of disposing all this "waste" food can be put to a better use by trying to feed as many people was possible.
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garth
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't be the only one that actively buys the funniest shape veg I can?
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

The dudes on Deadliest Catch said the same thing about the crab.
No-one wants a crab with barnacles on it, no matter the size :/
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supZ
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

hardly new news, but i thought we were trying to get this stopped?

the last big story on this was the stupid EU regs that banana's had to be a certain 'curve' otherwise they were binned.. ridiculous!
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 11:42 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had until now assumed that (for example) the tomatoes that didn't make the cut for supermarket shelves at least ended up as Dolmio or puree or ketchup or something.

In my experience supermarkets are a bit better at not wasting food than they were a decade or so ago. At least some of the oddly shaped/sized produce ends up in their no-frills ranges these days.

In the long run I think it's a problem that'll solve itself, as food gets more expensive and we as a society won't be able to afford the luxury of throwing away the less uniform stuff.
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Chalky.
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PostPosted: 11:52 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Re: What a waste. Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:


Quote:
The study also found that up to 30% of vegetables in the UK were not harvested because of their physical appearance


I'd like to see where thats from - it's rubbish.

They're always harvested but often end up in other places - animal feed is the main one, but tins and "lesser" food places too.

This year the supermarkets are taking everything they can and putting into "value" ranges etc - there's a shortage of ugly vegeatable that were traditionally used for feed.


pinkyfloyd wrote:

We pay farmers not to produce food and couldnt that money be used to help distribute food around the world? I mean how much does it cost to dispose of this "waste" food each year? Bound to be in the millions. Is it not cheaper to send it freight to third world countries where the Red Cross are already trying to feed the masses?



Farmers aren't paid not to produce food, that stopped years ago.

How would you send perishable goods? Who would pay? The tax payer is fine to pay for food and not eat it (throw it away), but I bet they wouldn't want the government to take food out of their pocket and send it to Africa.

It's the consumer buying too much, not us producing too much IMO.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

The supermarkets reject the weird shapes because you, the customer, reject the weird shapes. Perhaps not personally you, but people on average.

I know I go for the meat at the back of the fridge that has the longest sell by date.

Anyway, food in the UK is cheap. Arguing that we need to donate it to people within the UK is nonsense. If anyone goes hungry in the UK, then that's a problem that needs to be addressed via welfare, personal finances. (Perhaps mental health help for some.)

There's always nonsense on the news about someone 'struggling to feed themselves', and you find so much bollocks going on like prepay electric meters, mobile phone contracts, 2 bed house when 1 would suffice, etc.

Reduction in living quality? Sure. Going hungry? No.

Foreign aid would make sense, but it's not quite as easy as 'send a ship to a country with food on it'. The people you want to get the food won't get the food.


Last edited by Derivative on 11:59 - 10 Jan 2013; edited 1 time in total
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 11:56 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've worked in a supermarket everyday I would have to throw out boxes and boxes of food because the sellby was gone. I did my bit though, I eat dozen of cream cakes to save them from the bin.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 12:18 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chalky. wrote:


It's the consumer buying too much, not us producing too much IMO.


That makes no sense at all. We are buying too much not producing too much? If we didnt produce too much we wouldnt be buying too much in the first place! We can only buy in such excess because too much is being produced than we know what to do with.


Derivative wrote:

Anyway, food in the UK is cheap. Arguing that we need to donate it to people within the UK is nonsense. If anyone goes hungry in the UK, then that's a problem that needs to be addressed via welfare, personal finances. (Perhaps mental health help for some.)


Thats a lovely world you live in. When I was a kid I remember, not long after we had to relocate to Belfast after father told her he wanted a divorce leaving us homeless with no other option but to go to where her family were, feeding us and telling me and my sister she'll eat later because she's not hungry. Truth of the matter was she was hungry but did not have enough money to feed all of us and she made sure we had a proper meal even if it was just beans on toast with a sausage or 2.


Derivative wrote:

There's always nonsense on the news about someone 'struggling to feed themselves', and you find so much bollocks going on like prepay electric meters, mobile phone contracts, 2 bed house when 1 would suffice, etc.

Reduction in living quality? Sure. Going hungry? No.


Go tell that to the bloke you walked past with the blanket in the town centre yesterday. Go down to the local homeless centre and tell them they need to organize their finances better. Some of these people do not have finances to organize. It can be very hard to get welfare when you have no fixed abode and no paper trail. Go to the local refuge where that poor lady who used to get beaten by her bloke ran to to save herself and her kids from her abusive partner that she needs to sort her finances out.

I'm talking about big companies throwing stuff away simply because they cannot, by law, sell things after their best before date. Best before date is different than use by. As Chris pointed out. He's seen first hand the wastage that goes on in Supermarkets.

So how are supermarkets throwing out so much produce if WE are buying too much and wasting it? Yes us as consumers are the biggest source of food waste in the UK but supermarkets promote this with their BOGOF deals. Families tend to go mad for them and buy double the amount and it ends up in the bin.

Quote:
Britain's supermarkets generate 300,000 tonnes of food waste every year, but three of the big four refuse to reveal their individual figures. Channel 4 News asks why?


https://www.channel4.com/news/why-the-supermarket-secrecy-on-food-waste
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 12:29 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Re: What a waste. Reply with quote

Chalky. wrote:
pinkyfloyd wrote:


Quote:
The study also found that up to 30% of vegetables in the UK were not harvested because of their physical appearance


I'd like to see where thats from - it's rubbish.



https://www.imeche.org/knowledge/themes/environment/global-food

Part of the reportn and I quote:

Quote:
Major supermarkets, in meeting consumer expectations, will often reject entire crops of perfectly edible fruit and vegetables at the farm because they do not meet exacting marketing standards for their physical characteristics, such as size and appearance. For example, up to 30% of the UK’s vegetable crop is never harvested as a result of such practices. Globally, retailers generate 1.6 million tonnes of food waste annually in this way.

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Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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Skudd
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PostPosted: 12:38 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

The amount of food I have seen thrown out by supermarkets over the years would make you cry. I once had to throw away a full pallet of spuds just because they were a day past the sell by date. Nothing wrong with them except the date. Even things like plants in plant pots had sell by dates on them.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pinky, with all respect, I simply don't agree.
As a homeless person you can receive benefits through the jobcentre. There are basic bank accounts available to all.
If you don't know this or are too embarrassed to do so - fine. But that's a knowledge problem which could be far more easily addressed than trying to redistribute excess food (through what channels? how do you figure out who's deserving? etc)
I can't speak for 'back in the day' because the rules may have been different then.

Food is priority #1. I can accept people living in cramped conditions. I can accept that standard of living might be low, that people struggle to afford the bus or to find a job.

But not being able to afford food? Come on now. A diet which could be considered reasonably healthy costs three pounds per day.
'Not going hungry', as in, tin of beans, new potatoes, bit of bread, etc costs less than a quid a day.

And I'm unsure about calling unharvested crops 'wasted'. Surely they return most of their nutrients to the soil? Or are we picking them and chucking them in landfill? More details needed, really.


Last edited by Derivative on 12:49 - 10 Jan 2013; edited 3 times in total
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^^ Agree with that, the sell by date has caused a lot of this. My missus will throw stuff out the day it hits the sell by date where as 10 years ago it would have been eaten a week later. Also, as said earlier, we all go for the longest sell by date so the short dated stuff is left on the shelves.

As to distributing food around the world. It costs huge amounts and then when it gets to Africa, it goes in the pockets of the corrupt scum who run the place. I am totally against 1 penny of my taxes being spent on that.

A ship costs upwards of $20000 a day to charter, plus fuel on top. That's only a small one as well. Then there's the distribution, bribes, corporate shindigs for the ministers involved. Fuck that.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 13:00 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
Pinky, with all respect, I simply don't agree.
As a homeless person you can receive benefits through the jobcentre. There are basic bank accounts available to all.


To open a bank account you need a couple of things. ID is required at all times AND a living address. Most places require proof of address in the form of a utility bill.



Derivative wrote:

But not being able to afford food? Come on now. A diet which could be considered reasonably healthy costs three pounds per day.
'Not going hungry', as in, tin of beans, new potatoes, bit of bread, etc costs less than a quid a day.


Do me a menu plan because I would be interested to know how I can feed my family for £3 per head per day healthily. My mother, as said in my last post, went without to make sure we were fed. It happened and it still happens in this day and age. There are families that struggle out there and they budget well enough for their food and then something happens. A kid needs a new pair of shoes as their current ones have worn out. Thats £15 that has to be found out of a budget that was just about covering them. When it comes down to a choice of sending your kids to school in a new uniform because the old ones are too small and eating what would you choose? It is an every day reality for people.


Derivative wrote:
And I'm unsure about calling unharvested crops 'wasted'. Surely they return most of their nutrients to the soil? Or are we picking them and chucking them in landfill? More details needed, really.


Put it another way. Food that is perfectly edible not being eaten. Whether it ends up in landfill or back in the soil is irrelevant in my opinion when there are people going without. Feel free to go read the report yourself. Its a long one and I've worked my way through quite a bit of it. Its in the link posted, help yourself.
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Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
Do me a menu plan because I would be interested to know how I can feed my family for £3 per head per day healthily.


I'm pretty sure I posted this before. I can't really be bothered because 'healthy' is a nebulous concept, but think about broccoli, carrots, cauliflower, potatoes, chicken, ham, tuna, bread and pasta, cereal and milk. Stuff like that. Can be done for 15 quid a week. I lived most of last year on that.

I mean, it's not going to get you gourmet stuff but it's a start.

As far as I'm concerned though, in a SHTF situation, eating healthily can wait. If you find yourself with little money for a few months, having a few fatty meals here and there isn't going to kill you. The body is more resilient than we give it credit.

To me, 'going hungry' is not the polar opposite of 'eating like a Queen'. It means actually not having 2k calories, a bit of fat and a bit of protein each day.

In my view it's harder to find the time to eat healthily than it is the money. Making decent meals takes effort, time to buy the ingredients (as fresh stuff goes off), half an hour and washing up time to cook a meal, etcetera. Plus, you actually need a kitchen for many healthy meals. With an oven that works. And so on.

Quote:
Whether it ends up in landfill or back in the soil is irrelevant in my opinion when there are people going without.


I don't really think that's fair.
The bottleneck on producing food is fertilizer and transportation infrastructure.
It's not like we (as in, the world) have a shortage of arable land. Not yet, anyway.

Also, school shoes don't cost 15 quid. Not in my working class city, anyway.

https://www.postoffice.co.uk/post-office-card-account as far as I am aware can be set up without an address.
Benefits can be paid in there.

When I say 'lack of financial planning', don't translate it into 'moron'. That's not my intent. My point is that our focus should be on educating people, on having support there for the homeless to rebuild their lives by teaching them how to get back on their feet. Not throwing food and hostels at them.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:

When I say 'lack of financial planning', don't translate it into 'moron'. That's not my intent. My point is that our focus should be on educating people, on having support there for the homeless to rebuild their lives by teaching them how to get back on their feet. Not throwing food and hostels at them.


I agree with this part. But while these people are in the hostels is it better to throw the food out because that wont educate them? Or educate them AND give out food that the charities set up to help these people are crying out for money to feed them?

Theres been cases of supermarkets taking people to court for theft because they were caught stealing out of the bins. Taking rubish that the supermarket did not want anyways. They would rather it go to landfill or somewhere than help someone out.

Education is the key, agreed. But its not just the struggling that need educated. Its everyone. We are a throw away nation. Mrs Pinky and I will buy the BOGOF offers but only if we are sure we are going to use the product. We'll happily use food thats past its best before date. We'll happily freeze meat to use after its use by date. Everyone needs educated in how to control their food waste. Thats everyone from Mr Cheap to Mr Rich and Mr supermarket.

We as a nation have became too picky about what we will accept when we go shopping. When I was a kid the likes of Tesco and the massive supermarkets were not as popular. You got your meat from the butcher, veg from the grocer and milk was delivered in the morning by the milkman. Veg came in all shapes and sizes. Its within the last 20 years or so that the standards changed. EU regulations regected various shapes and set a standard. I remember the farce that was the banana law some nutter dreamt up saying they had to be a certain size and shape.

We need to educate everyone to the fact that just because this carrot has 2 points and isnt straight it tastes exactly the same as this one thats "pefectly formed."
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Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 13:50 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
Theres been cases of supermarkets taking people to court for theft because they were caught stealing out of the bins. Taking rubish that the supermarket did not want anyways. They would rather it go to landfill or somewhere than help someone out.


You presumably know the reasoning for this, though. If you've ever seen people hawking the guy with the 'reduced' sticker gun, you're looking at it. People will wait for the reductions. There's a sandwich shop near me that does half price food 15 mins before closing time. People pile in - but how many of them would have bought it at full price?

Quote:
Education is the key, agreed. But its not just the struggling that need educated. Its everyone. We are a throw away nation. Mrs Pinky and I will buy the BOGOF offers but only if we are sure we are going to use the product. We'll happily use food thats past its best before date. We'll happily freeze meat to use after its use by date. Everyone needs educated in how to control their food waste. Thats everyone from Mr Cheap to Mr Rich and Mr supermarket.


Only if you believe food is expensive as a result of shortages and not other factors like transportation and labour costs.

I don't think that reducing food waste would significantly affect the price of food.

And I don't think even, say, a 20% change in the price of food would significantly affect affordability, because it's not the most expensive item out there. We spend less on food than at pretty much any time in recorded history.

Graph for the US (I can't find one offhand for the UK, but it can't be that far off):

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TC9NcrJvG0I/AAAAAAAAN3Y/S8hwBzi_3uk/s1600/food.jpg

Educating people that wonky carrots are fine is a non-starter. Yes, we know they're fine. But it's a bit like telling someone that they don't need to live in a nice house, they could just live in an apartment. And they both cost the same. Why would anyone choose the latter?

Though, it would be good to see both 'class 1' and 'class 2' carrots, for example. Wonky carrots for 70p/kg, non-wonky for 1.00/kg (numbers made up).
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 13:58 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a bit "misuse of statistics" naughty. They should start the "percent" scale at 0 to give a less skewed graph. Although the trend is still clear, they've exaggerated the extent of it.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

angryjonny wrote:
That's a bit "misuse of statistics" naughty. They should start the "percent" scale at 0 to give a less skewed graph. Although the trend is still clear, they've exaggerated the extent of it.


I agree. But the point is clear. If 10% of your income is spent on food, a 10% change in the price of food is really quite small - especially if you can change your purchasing decisions and just buy more/less.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got me really confused. Not once have I mentioned the price of food being high or anything. My whole post is about the amount of food being wasted. not the cost of it being produced.

But we'll talk costs. It costs billions to produce this food. To produce 1KG of beef takes around 15K Liters of water. That water costs a small fortune. 1KG of apples is over 800l of water needed to produce.

Its not the cost of producing food thats the issue. Its the amount of wastage, needless wastage. But that costs a small fortune to dispose of too. How much money could be saved with proper food control measures being taught?

Your class distinction between carrots is a good idea but it shouldnt even be a question. Carrots are carrots. Just because they look funny does not mean its not a carrot. Your comparison about houses/appartments is down to choice. We're not given a choice in whether to buy wonky or non wonky. Making them cheaper because they are wonky is not going to solve the problem either. We'll still get serious amounts of wastage. It needs taken back a step all the way to the begining. We should be taught not to be such fussy bastards when it comes to our food shape, supermarkets should not be insisting on X size and Y width or Z roundess and farmers would not need to produce as much as a result. End result would be you eat your wonky carrots that Tesco bought from their farmer and the farmer is happy because he hasnt wasted a third of his crop.

Think about it this way: Joe consumer now has no choice but to buy wonky carrots as Mr Supermarket has told Mr farmer that he'll buy the wonky ones aswell as the straight ones. Mr Farmer is happy now because he no longer has to waste 30% of his carrot crop because they bend in the wrong direction and can now produce a 30% smaller crop and get the same money. Mr Supermarket is happy because he's still selling the same amount of carrots. Joe public still serve sliced carrots on the family table that look exactly the same. (Thats the thing, we complain about wonky carrots and then the only way we seem to serve them is sliced!)

30% carrot waste gone with no money loss or increased costs. Mr farmer now has a spare field to grow corn in, or raise cows.
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.


Last edited by pinkyfloyd on 14:17 - 10 Jan 2013; edited 1 time in total
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angryjonny
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PostPosted: 14:16 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
I agree. But the point is clear. If 10% of your income is spent on food, a 10% change in the price of food is really quite small - especially if you can change your purchasing decisions and just buy more/less.

Yes and no. That is US data where the cost of living is much lower than in the UK. It's also a national average. In reality the poor will spend proportionately more on food (as a percentage of income) than the wealthy (everyone has to eat), so fluctuations in food prices hit the poorest the hardest.
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woo
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol no disrespect but i found this out when i was a child in mid 80's this has been going on for years!

Its time the occupy movement shouted and protested about this then something might actually change as they are the ones in UK with balls to actually do anything about anything!
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
Not once have I mentioned the price of food being high or anything. My whole post is about the amount of food being wasted. not the cost of it being produced.


Why does it matter that food is being 'wasted'? We waste plastic, metal, all sorts of stuff all the time. E-waste in landfills. Valuable resources being chucked on the scrap heap.

If less wastage means price savings, great.
If it doesn't, why should I care one jot?

Price savings _means_ food is more affordable. It means less people 'go hungry'.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
pinkyfloyd wrote:
Not once have I mentioned the price of food being high or anything. My whole post is about the amount of food being wasted. not the cost of it being produced.


Why does it matter that food is being 'wasted'? We waste plastic, metal, all sorts of stuff all the time. E-waste in landfills. Valuable resources being chucked on the scrap heap.

If less wastage means price savings, great.
If it doesn't, why should I care one jot?

Price savings _means_ food is more affordable. It means less people 'go hungry'.


So why try and formulate an argument when you dont see why it concerns you?

I read your profile, seems your interested in economics. Do you study it? If so then I suggest you rethink the last statement.

Less wastage would cut the cost of disposal. Obviously. If big companies dont have to pay as much to dispose of their wastage (and they pay a shitload) then it would/could decrease the cost of sale.

Also.

Less produced because we are no longer picking perfect looking veg would decrease farmers overheads. Transportation costs could be decreased by growing in the UK. We import tomatoes because they are a better shape in spain. They are and could be grown in the UK but because they are smaller they are not deemed acceptable. That also could/would reduce costs at the consumer end. Its basic economics. I dont study it and even I know that. Rolling Eyes
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:58 - 10 Jan 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
I read your profile, seems your interested in economics.

https://ccjm.dnsd.me/smbc-economics.gif

We live on a cold, damp island full of miserable naysaying jobsworths. Excessive comfort shopping is one of the few pleasures still allowed to us.

Take my love, take my land, take me where I cannot stand,
I don't care, I'm still free, you can't take French fries from me.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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The last post was made 13 years, 94 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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