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Cracked head on breaker's engine

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Gazza M
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Joined: 19 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: 19:36 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Cracked head on breaker's engine Reply with quote
I bought a used R6 engine from a breakers back at the start of November. I've just got round to cleaning it up and getting it ready to go, and noticed during cleaning it there is a big crack in the head. It's on the part that covers where the cam chain runs around a mounting point and unfortunately runs all the way through the casing.

I'm no expert - but I wouldn't be particularly comfortable with running this head as the crack may propagate through with vibration & temperature and eventually cause something to come off inside the engine and then cause all sorts of crap inside the rest of the engine.

The engine came off a bike that (I imagine) had been written off by insurers, but there was no mention of the crack - guessing it just wasn't spotted. The engine was advertised as 'in excellent working condition as you would expect with such low mileage, and comes complete with the gearbox and all internal/external parts as shown', but I'm sure they shouldn't have sold it to me with a cracked head. Thing I'm worried about is that it's been 3 months since I bought it so outside of the warranty they specify, so they might not want to do anything about it. Admittedly I should've spotted it earlier but that's another matter.

So what are my options? Not a happy bunny today.

https://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l598/gazzam1/Cambridge-20130201-00233_zpsade2acd3.jpg
https://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l598/gazzam1/Cambridge-20130201-00231_zpsd64b2dc4.jpg
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Marmaduke
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Don't think duct tape will work.
Nothing to lose by giving the breakers a ring though, hopefully they'll understand or they'll assume you've done it as it's been a while since you bought it.


Would it pass an MOT with that engine? Do they check for things like this?
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Casper
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PostPosted: 20:10 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sorry mate but i think you are fucked. I have never seen a braker give more than 3 month waranty if any. Was it advertised as A1 and did you get a recipt?

BTW. Cant you use your old head?
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Drake
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
get it welded. drop the oil, make sure there is no circuit board on it. take it to a reputable engineering shop and ask them.
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MarJay
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PostPosted: 20:46 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Drake wrote:
get it welded. drop the oil, make sure there is no circuit board on it. take it to a reputable engineering shop and ask them.


No wai. It won't work. That's right next to the camchain recess. any excess weld or warping in that area and the engine is toast.

The engine is toast anyway... Should have checked it out more thorougly. You can try complaining to the breaker but they'll just accuse you of damaging it in the mean time.
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Gazza M
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
MarJay wrote:
Drake wrote:
get it welded. drop the oil, make sure there is no circuit board on it. take it to a reputable engineering shop and ask them.


No wai. It won't work. That's right next to the camchain recess. any excess weld or warping in that area and the engine is toast.

The engine is toast anyway... Should have checked it out more thorougly. You can try complaining to the breaker but they'll just accuse you of damaging it in the mean time.


thought it was toast. on the original pictures of the engine you can see the crack if you know it's there so they definitely sold it to me like that!

We do have another head for the same engine but it needs a bit of work doing to it - the engine we had before (we being formula student team) swallowed a sintered intake that wasn't sealed proplerly, the material sintered itself to the valves and eventually it seized. That's been partially rebuilt, the cams need seating properly and the whole thing put together and shim'd but I really don't feel confident doing a big job like that!
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T0MMY
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
If they're honest and you can see the crack in their own pictures then you'd think they would refund you.

However...

I'd say they knew full well it was there, and so are definitely not going to refund you as they're not honest!
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Paulington
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PostPosted: 21:30 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gazza M wrote:
thought it was toast. on the original pictures of the engine you can see the crack if you know it's there so they definitely sold it to me like that!

We do have another head for the same engine but it needs a bit of work doing to it - the engine we had before (we being formula student team) swallowed a sintered intake that wasn't sealed proplerly, the material sintered itself to the valves and eventually it seized. That's been partially rebuilt, the cams need seating properly and the whole thing put together and shim'd but I really don't feel confident doing a big job like that!

Is the R6 engine still the most common engine in FS? I've heard people say a sleeved-down SV650S (to get to the 610cc limit) would work well due to the different torque characteristics, same with the Aprilia 550cc twin engine. However I seem to remember something about an intake restrictor causing a problem with twins? One of the more innovative ideas I've seen is a (I think) 250cc four-stroke single hugely turbocharged, quite a decent amount of power with a large weight saving. Thumbs Up.

However, I refuse to believe a dealer that isn't a complete moron wouldn't spot that crack, it's so blatantly obvious on the side of the engine in that first picture even just a quick look over would spot it. I'm with Tommy, they knew it was there.

Either way, give them a ring and see what the say. Thumbs Up.
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Last edited by Paulington on 21:45 - 01 Feb 2013; edited 1 time in total
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 21:39 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paulington wrote:

I'm surprised you're using an R6 engine as a Formula Student team, I've heard a lot of people say that a sleeved SV650 motor (to get to the 610cc limit) is preferable due to the different engine characteristics (low revving, moar torque)..


An SV650 is too big:

Quote:
B8.1 Engine Limitation
B8.1.1 If a liquid or gaseous fuel burning engine is fitted it must be an Internal Combustion, four-stroke piston engine with a maximum displacement of 610cc.

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Paulington
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PostPosted: 21:46 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nick 50 wrote:
Paulington wrote:

I'm surprised you're using an R6 engine as a Formula Student team, I've heard a lot of people say that a sleeved SV650 motor (to get to the 610cc limit) is preferable due to the different engine characteristics (low revving, moar torque)..


An SV650 is too big:

Quote:
B8.1 Engine Limitation
B8.1.1 If a liquid or gaseous fuel burning engine is fitted it must be an Internal Combustion, four-stroke piston engine with a maximum displacement of 610cc.

Look at what I said.

"A sleeved SV650 motor (to get to the 610cc limit)", sleeved being the operative word, meaning sleeved down (or short-stroked) so the capacity is 610cc instead.

Read man! Laughing.
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covent.gardens
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PostPosted: 21:52 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gazza M wrote:
On the original pictures of the engine you can see the crack if you know it's there so they definitely sold it to me like that!

That ought to help you.
Within 6 months any fault is presumed to have been there at point of sale anyway unless they can prove otherwise.

You probably are entitled to a refund but they could make you do a lot of work to get it, might end up in small claims.
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Gazza M
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PostPosted: 21:56 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
covent.gardens wrote:
Gazza M wrote:
On the original pictures of the engine you can see the crack if you know it's there so they definitely sold it to me like that!

That ought to help you.
Within 6 months any fault is presumed to have been there at point of sale anyway unless they can prove otherwise.

You probably are entitled to a refund but they could make you do a lot of work to get it, might end up in small claims.


As they sold it as 'in excellent working condition' I'm sure they should do something. eBay might have something to say about it too as they seem to be a big seller of motorcycle parts.

Can't do a lot at the moment as I doubt they'll be open on the weekend!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:01 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Like fuck did they not notice that. You've been screwed. Are you going to lie there and take it?
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hornetmike
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PostPosted: 23:48 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Take the head off and get it welded it will be fine
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Nick 50
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PostPosted: 23:51 - 01 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paulington wrote:

Look at what I said.

"A sleeved SV650 motor (to get to the 610cc limit)", sleeved being the operative word, meaning sleeved down (or short-stroked) so the capacity is 610cc instead.

Read man! Laughing.


Embarassed That is all ......... *gets me jacket*
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Ariel Badger
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PostPosted: 00:22 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
£20
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MattEMulsion
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PostPosted: 08:37 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Why not just ring up and speak to the breaker, explain the situation and see what they say???
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mistergixer
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PostPosted: 09:15 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Marmaduke wrote:

Don't think duct tape will work.


You, sir, clearly know nothing about engineering - there is nothing in this world which cannot be fixed by duct tape. Or a hammer.

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Walloper
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PostPosted: 09:29 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
MattEMulsion wrote:
Why not just ring up and speak to the breaker, explain the situation and see what they say???


FFS.... Until you do ^^^ do not post any more.

One can only try one's arm.

Rolling Eyes
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
I think you have got a fair argument. Point out that the crack around the lug is broken outwards, caused by the lug being pulled in the frame during a crash, rather than inwards as it you had been clumsy and dropped the engine on the side of the head.

Be prepared for them to claim that you have been using it in a bike and caused the damage by crashing yourself though.
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Gazza M
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
MattEMulsion wrote:
Why not just ring up and speak to the breaker, explain the situation and see what they say???


FFS.... Until you do ^^^ do not post any more.

One can only try one's arm.

Rolling Eyes


Obviously gonna do that - they aren't open at weekend so I will monday.

What I was getting at was is it best to get a whole new head/is it weldable.

Paulington wrote:
Is the R6 engine still the most common engine in FS?


lots of teams are going for singles at the moment, but this and the cbr600 seem to be the most popular IL4s.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 13:36 - 02 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Gazza M wrote:
Obviously gonna do that - they aren't open at weekend so I will monday.

What I was getting at was is it best to get a whole new head/is it weldable.

Paulington wrote:
Is the R6 engine still the most common engine in FS?


lots of teams are going for singles at the moment, but this and the cbr600 seem to be the most popular IL4s.


You will not be able to get that piece welded.
They are very intricate castings with cavities and then machining for shafts etc.
So it's not possible to weld inside the cavities and if possible the welding process would stress the casting so it would probably fail later or miss align the machined parts.
You need another used head I'm afraid.
If the breaker has stock then he may take pity on you and try to help by discounting at the very least. The thing is you should have cleaned it up at the time of the sale as you only had limited warranty.
So I don't think it is unreasonable of the breaker to ask you to buy another rather than off you replacement for free. Sad
But it's almost Christmas so maybe he'll show mercy.
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Gazza M
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PostPosted: 14:17 - 13 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
quick update - they're coming and picking it up tomorrow and giving me a refund for it. Then I've gotta find another, and give it a proper check over this time!
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P.
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 13 Feb 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sounds like a nice place..

Care to name and fame?
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