My bike's siezed up :o(

[Fallen Angel]

Don't know why

Don't know how

But I know it's strange

I threw a sicky at work today and since it was nice and dry desided to take the bike out for a run!

Filled up with oil, filled up with fuel, got about 16 miles and it felt a bit funny and I don't even know what I mean about funny, but it was making a wee noise like metal clunking

I had slowed right down at this point and pulled in and stopped at the side of the road.

Anyway, the engine just cut out - you know the way it sometimes does first thing in the morning before it's warmed up!

And it wouldn't start again, was completely siezed up and the kick start wouldn't start

Can anyone give me any advise or has anyone came across this before?

The guy from the AA came and towed the bike home on a trailer and he said he thinks it might be the top end of the engine (pistons ) that have siezed up, but he's not sure why that would happen if there's oil in it etc. he didn't look at the bike or anything! Just towed me home - not really sure if they are meant to try and fix it, but the other half seems to think they are!

I'm a bit gutted and hope it's nothing too serious!!!

Was very impressed at loads of people stopping to ask if I was okay!

Any advise would be much appreciated!

Fran
____________________
I have an asshole tolerance level of -10
www.cliqueyclanmcc.co.uk
www.bebo.com/fallenangelfran

[Jammy-G]

Can you kick start it? Will it turn over or is the kick start jammed? If it does turn over but not fire up it could be as simple as a blockage in the fuel pipe or in the carb jet. If it seized I'm sure you would definitely know about it, as it would just lock up.
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RooRoo: just like the time i stuck my finger up my arse with no lube at all and she didnt talk to me for hours

[Fallen Angel]

No it's completely seized up, won't kickstart at all - nothing, not a sausage!!!
____________________
I have an asshole tolerance level of -10
www.cliqueyclanmcc.co.uk
www.bebo.com/fallenangelfran

[tatters]

your looking at a top end rebuild, at leased a new over sized piston and rings, re-bore of the cyclinder, gaskets. single cyclinder two strokes are the easyiest to re-build so you could do it your self as part of a learning experance.
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Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV

[Fallen Angel]

What kind of money would we be talking about if we were to get this done at a garage CPL?
____________________
I have an asshole tolerance level of -10
www.cliqueyclanmcc.co.uk
www.bebo.com/fallenangelfran

[tatters]

about £200-300 labour maybe.

piston kit £60-70

re-bore £60? (iron cast cyclinder so no niksol plating)

gaskets £30

possably (small end bearing)



thats if the cyclinder head/con rod/crank is ok
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Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV

[Fallen Angel]

So you're talking £500 at least!!!

Do you reckon this could have anything to do with us de-restricting it a couple of weeks back??
____________________
I have an asshole tolerance level of -10
www.cliqueyclanmcc.co.uk
www.bebo.com/fallenangelfran

[tatters]

at a garage yer, re-builds are expensive. you could always get a second hand engine of ebay for about £100
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Past:NRG50,AF1125(x2),NSR125RR,ZZR250,CX500,VFR400,KR1S,ZZR600(x2),CB400N,YZF1000(x2),KH125,Z200,FX400R,CBR954RR(x2)GPZ500S,GT550,VFR750F(x2),RD350N,XR650R,CBR600F,CB250,KDX250,YZF750R,CRM250,400EXC,KLR650,TTR600RE,DR350S,R100GSPD,RGV250,VMAX1200,DL650,KZ750 Present:G650XC,C12,CRF450X,1190ADV

[Fallen Angel]

____________________
I have an asshole tolerance level of -10
www.cliqueyclanmcc.co.uk
www.bebo.com/fallenangelfran

[cagiva gezzer]

Umm, this might go over your head, but did you alter the jetting when you de-restricted it
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"because one stroke isnt enough and four strokes waste two"

[tatters]

[Fallen Angel]

[Fallen Angel]

[cagiva gezzer]

Prices - https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/index.html

cylinder/piston £99
gaskets £12.50
Rings £22
Small end bearing £?? (~5)

When i bike is derestricted, you normally have to increase the jetting to allow more fuel through the engine. If you don't increase the jetting, the engine runs too lean and overheats. This can cuase bits to melt/snap/seize.

For example, a cagiva engine has to be upjetted by 10 (from 110-120 i think..) when derestricted.

Not sure about a NS, but common sense says you should have to. Pull the plug out and see what it looks like.

The rebuild is not that hard. A matter of 10 or so nuts and bolts and a bit of common sense. If you managed to de-restrict it, than you can re-build it!
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"because one stroke isnt enough and four strokes waste two"

[Fallen Angel]

[Keith]

Oh dear, another NS gone pop.

The exact same thing happened to mine. I decided it would be easier to source a complete (running) engine from a breakers.

Ended up buying the complete lump for £170 (delivered) and something like £100 to have it fitted by a local mechanic.

They are quite rare and hard to track down but if you can find one, it could be a fair bit cheaper than rebuilding with new parts.

Good look, Angel.
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Aprilia RSV Mille R Edwards Replica - Aprilia RS250 - Suzuki GSXR600 Supersport Race Bike

[Kickstart]

Hi

Normally should the top end seize up then it is a heat seizure. Basically the piston gets too hot and expands so that it is too big to fit in the bore. Can easily wreck the top end of the engine. However every time this has happened to me (loads of times) the engine has freed itself off when it cools down, often within a minute or so. Depending on the damage they will often start then (if the rings are OK) although it might well rattle like hell, but not always.

The only time I have had an engine seize and stay seized was from a failed main bearing. On this occasion the cage (the metal or plastic bit that holds the balls in position in the bearing) broke and jammed.

Neither are going to be that cheap to fix. Cagiva Geezers prices are about the best you are going to get for the top end. The bottom end prices might well be cheaper (eg, doubt a pair of main bearings are much over £20 from Honda) but it is a lot more work to fix. A new barrel and piston is easy to fit, and the manual should show you how easy.

First thing I would suggest is to take the top end off the engine. If you take the bolts out and the barrel slides off then it is almost certain it is the bottom end. If it is the bottom end then it will either be the big end bearing or the main bearings (gearbox bearings are possible but then they would not affect the kick start if the clutch was pulled).

While a dealers rebuild bill might well be quite expensive you can save yourself a substantial amount by taking the engine out yourself, and once the work is done replaceing it yourself. This might well knock well over £100 off the bill. Dropping the engine out is not difficult, just takes a bit of time. Make full use of your digital camera to take pics of where everything comes from.

For a very rough idea we had an RS50 engine rebuilt recently (not my bike and I did not fancy trying to do the bottom end myself) at £265. That was for a new big end bearing, main bearings and a piston (big end bearing had broken up, and I think one of the rollers from it had got into the barrel and turned the top of the piston into a scale model of the moons surface). That was with me taking the engine out of the bike and dropping it in.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[ZRX61]

Ok, hold on a minute there Oppenheimer...
1: Why on earth would anyone want to pull the engine out to remove the head & cylinder??
2: Just buy the parts you need & take just the rings, piston & cylinder to the machine shop & have it re-bored. Rebore shoukldn't be more than 30quid tops for a single 2squeek.
3: Do NOT buy the piston etc until you have removed the old one so you can check if it has been rebored before.
4: If possible: Do not buy the OEM piston etc, go with Mahle, better quality & cheaper.
Removing all the parts shouldn't take more than an hour, ditto on reassembly.

[Fallen Angel]

UPDATE

Right you lot of mechanically minded genius's (or should that be geniusi )

Anyway, just been down to have a look at the bike. The kickstart was still seized but released itself after semi-bump-starting it and releasng the clutch. Now the kickstart has full freplay, but the exhaust backfires when trying to kickstart and bump-start!

If you put in gear with the clutch in and then push the bike letting the clutch out gradually when you pull the clutch back in the engine take a moment or two to disengage, rather than doing it automatically

Just for the sake of it, we checked the spark plug and it looks absolutely fine, not too rich or too lean! Dunno if that makes any difference or not.

Does this enlighten any of you??? I hope so!

Fran
____________________
I have an asshole tolerance level of -10
www.cliqueyclanmcc.co.uk
www.bebo.com/fallenangelfran

[stinkwheel]

I must admit, I would also be wanting to strip the top-end. You aren't really going to know what to do until you can have a look in there.

It is not a difficult job, you can follow it through from the workshop manual. I did my first top-end without even the benefit of an english language manual.

You will need a Gasket set, a piston + ring kit and possibly new small end bearings. Last rebore I had cost me 15 quid.

It will cost you nothing to take it apart and have a look, only then can you assess what has gone wrong. If it is something more fundamental then so be it, nothing you can do about it now.

Assuming it is a simple top-end seizure/broken ring, if you do it all yourself, I would be surprised if the parts came to 100 quid.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[binge]

Well because the piston has flaked away on my scooter, mechanic at barneys bikes is doing a full engine rebuild (cos the bottom end needs cleaning out) and replacing the whole cylinder and piston and its cost me £120 for a new PM tuning cylinder and £250 labour... I mean fucking hell the whole ped is only worth double that...

Ben...

[Kickstart]

Hi

The NS uses a plated bore so cannot be rebored. They can be replated but that will cost around £100 + a piston, so a new one from David Silver spares is probably a fair bit cheaper.

Given what you have said I am still not sure where it has seized.

Anyway, not sure how much you know about which bits are where but thought some pics might help.

These are from an early Aprilia engine (have a few spare ones floating round in the garage), but it is fairly similar to the NS engine.

Fairly obvious one, but this is the piston (no rings fitted to this one). You need to make sure this goes in the right way. Normally there is an arrow on the top pointing to the side that goes on the exhaust port side.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2810.jpg

This is the crankshaft. The white bit is a slieve around one of the main bearings (the other one is still in the crankcase half). The connecting rod is pointing out to the right. The big end bearing lives where the conrod joins the crankshaft.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2813.jpg

Here you can see the main bearing. You can see the balls in it, and that there is a metal cage locating them.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2814.jpg

Here is the big end bearing. This is normally a roller bearing on a 2 stroke.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2815.jpg

Pair of crankcase halves. This are pretty much bare here, with the clutch and everything else removed.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2816.jpg

Inside of one crankcase half. The section to the left (which is cleaner) is where the gearbox lives. the smaller dirtier section to the right is where the crank lives. The other main bearing is visable in here in this picture.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2817.jpg

This is just the other crankcase half.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2818.jpg

This is how the crank fits into one crankcase half.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2819.jpg

This is the barrel, with the head, reed block and carb rubber in position.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2820.jpg

As above but with the head off.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2821.jpg

This is the carb rubber. This connects the carb to the barrel (on this engine, on some engines the carb connects through one of these to the crankcases).

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2822.jpg

This is the reed block. This is basically a one way valve to allow fuel / air from the carb into the crankcases, but not back out again. There is basically a metal block with some thin plastic reeds and a couple of thicker metal plates to prevent the reeds bending too far.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2823.jpg

Other side of the reed block.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2824.jpg

Picture of the barrel from below.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2825.jpg

Obvious one really. Piston half into the barrel.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2826.jpg

Picture of one crankcase half with the crank, barrel, head, reed block and carb rubber in place.

https://www.alfa-pages.co.uk/TempPicture/Img_2827.jpg

Hope this makes things a bit clearer.

All the best

Keith
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Fortuna]

They have a Nikasil barrel and an aluminium piston.
In the years I owned my bike it needed 2 rebuilds. The pistons are stupidly cheap and you can get reconditioned barrels if it has done the worst.
They are very easy to rebuild, hey I'd help but I live miles away.
The NS125R is restricted by being "choked" in the exhaust as you discovered, and to be honest I never had any problems after I derestricted most where before. You shouldn't have to re jet as it is running in effect how it was meant to.
Make sure you have enough water as even though it's colder they can still overheat.
Sadly I can confirm your worst fears that it's most likely a seized top end.
9 times out of ten it's usually worn rings that have broken causing the seizure.
What year, how long you had it and when was the last rebuild? The NS125R is fast, but sadly known for blowing up.

[stinkwheel]

[tatters]