Back protectors

[henry hoover]

Im probably going to pick one of these up tomorrow. I will be using it on the street and on the track.

My jacket has got a slot to put a back protector in. But are the ones that you wear under your jacket better


https://www.hein-gericke.co.uk/clothing/dainese-wave-air-ruckenprotektor-13-air-schwarz.html
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Cbr600rr 2010 Sold
Zx6r 636 2006 sold
Gsxr 750 L1 current

[-Matt-]

This would be best overall. They sit and secure much snugger and safely - back pocket ones have a tendancy to shuffle about a bit which in an accident isnt what you want. Also they generally are harder to find good fitting/higher spec ones [dainese one being the best at level 2].

Also ones like the one you linked tend to be slightly longer on average which gives a bit of additional protection particulary if you aren't all that tall.

The only downside is the cost really - but then its worth it without doubt if you have the budget.

You can get a decent slot in level 1 protector like this
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/161072163166?device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=83
For as little as a tenner - but if you can afford it , go for it - especially if you're going to be going on track i'd not even consider a level 1 to be honest.

[henry hoover]

It does look pretty secure.

I didn't realise the slot in ones can move about that kinda defeats the object
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Cbr600rr 2010 Sold
Zx6r 636 2006 sold
Gsxr 750 L1 current

[-Matt-]

Its not like a guaranteed thing but its a lot more likely - i'm very skinny and for example i have a jacket thats leather not some tight-zipped racing style one just a casual 'old school' kind of look jacket if you can picture what i mean, and my back protector in that if you really bash the side of it can move almost a quarter of the way across my back - so me vs curb = bad

Before you go and get that one i'd have a quick look at alpinestars ones they may be a tad cheaper, maybe not but worth a lot both equally good standard.

There are also for a tad more some [alpinestars i know do it at least] chest armour incorperating 'vest' versions of those style back protectors if you want to really go all out for the track - again, if you have the money for the extra bit on top i'd consider it definately.

[pits]

not looked at the link, but I've got the Knox one because it isn't a stiff board, it bends with your back and is supposed to cushion etc.
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[henry hoover]

[-Matt-]

Worst case divert via a bike shop on route to the track and get any old level 1 budget one, better that than nothing temporarily.

Could even be cheeky and return it after the day if they accept 'bad fitting' not to condone such horrendous behaviour...

[G]

[Joncrete Cungle]

The protectors with aluminum honeycomb structure in them will not imho offer the same level of protection once the back protector has suffered one hefty impact and the aluminum honeycome structure is bent and deformed.

Based on doing a bit of 'surgery' on one after a friend crashed while wearing it.

[-Matt-]

You don't seem a fan of my posts lately or maybe its just me

I'll do it by quote as i'm on the phone - not trying to be blunt.

1/2/3 - Based initially on what i said yes about the strap securing and as mentioned being skinny i've found many back pocket ones totally inadequate and probably near useless in an accident for my frame.

I didn't claim they would protect against a direct blow to the back if i've correctly understood your point on the big paragraph

4 Longer for me has meant it covers more of the lower back - not at any time the neck, vs some back pocket protectors which as someone whos quite tall barely cover the majority of my back you'd expect to be protected by a back protector - of course this is open to differences between rider but it was a generalisation based on my experience of the size vs height - maybe too generalised

5/6 If you have the money - why not get the best, i'm admittedly probably more safety cautious than a lot of people doesn't mean its right to be or i'm right by any means - but if moneys 'not an object' and you want protection - why not get something better suited that adequately protects you vs something ill-fitting or otherwise.

[G]

I'm not a fan of people that offer advice which seems to be more like conjecture or gossip.

If you have good reasoning behind the advice you're offering, do feel free to provide it .

Otherwise, expect to get pulled up if it's just guesswork packaged as knowledge.


I meant to mention - if one in a jacket is moving about, it suggests it's either not right for the jacket (I suspect some velcro would hold it in place) or that the jacket is a poor fit. If the jacket is a poor fit, personally I'd be trying to sort that first.
I suspect that a better fitting jacket will do more in most situations than a back protector.

What exactly do you think a back protector is going to do that you think they are 'near useless in an accident' if you don't think they're going to protect against a direct blow.
From what I can tell, they are tested with a direct blow and that's what the level 1 vs level 2 test is about. You make a big thing of suggesting a level 2 is needed, when the difference between the two is that the level 2 is how it deals with a direct blow.

I haven't seen the results or conclusive evidence, which is why I made a point of using the word 'possibly', but; a back protector, especially a separate one held on with elastic straps can easily ride up in an accident. I'm presuming this is a case where the body is arched outwards.
So your lower body pushes the back protector up, at which point the rigid item can interact with your neck as your arched body bends backwards.
Wouldn't be an issue with in-leathers ones where the leathers are one piece or securely zipped together (note I said securely, rather than, say, zip together systems of Dianese quality!)

Your answer to the last point does not answer my questions.
Ok, it does answer my question if you are of the believe that more money must mean better? Is that the case?
If not, care to answer the questions?

I appreciate Dianese might feel nicer when you wear it - but I'm presuming you're not claiming you'd know the same for the OP.

Finally - I believe you'd said you hadn't done a trackday.
It might be worth doing one before offering advice on them!

Me, if someone had £130 to spend and wanted to be safer on track and the road, I'd suggest they buy a copy of motorcycle roadcraft and book a double-day trackday.
Motorcycle roadcraft they can learn to avoid crashing on the road and having two days on track means they can really focus on progressing slowly, so they don't crash.


Safety concious to my mind means actually knowing what will make you safer; not just throwing money at shiny brand name things and telling yourself it will all be happy-la-la.
Of course, safety cautious is a different concept and one I've not heard before .

[-Matt-]

First thing fair enough, no issue with being questioned just has felt everything you've commented on has been to dispute my points but i guess thats justified from how i'm coming across by the sounds of it so no problem

The jacket fitting thing is a fair point, but the jackets do fit me [as best they can at least] as mentioned i'm very 'lanky' for want of a better word, which makes sizing extremely difficult - maybe its things like this i need to include with what i'm saying to make it more relevant to others

The 'near useless in an accident' i believe i mentioned regards it slipping in a bad fitting jacket If so it was because the level of slippage at some point of my back would leave it virtually open to impact with whatever surface at some points, again defeating the point of it.

As you rightly say the tests are done on a 'direct blow' basis, but this still impacts the dispersal of none-direct blows - to cover myself i'll go with speculation on this point, but there can't be a magical centre point at which it takes a blow and everything outside that remains unaltered surely

It is possible they can ride up in some cases i'm sure, but no less than a pocket one could so although a risk i don't think its any more risk, the 'strap on' longer ones have never been below my lower spine to a point that they'd hit the contact surface and quicker than a pocket one causing it 'shoot up' towards the neck etc.

And yes i haven't ever done track day, i don't claim to of though to be fair - i'm going by friends advice - okay maybe a few peoples advice doesn't mean somethings correct i'm just sharing knowledge i've come across, it'd be no more accurate from me having done a track day than it would my collective friends who have, its just opinion and speculation ultimately whoever its from.

It would seem i'm being far too unclear in my explanations perhaps, or more speculations and opinions that aren't made clear to be that

[Deadringers]

OP i bought this one about 6 months ago:
https://www.sportsbikeshop.co.uk/motorcycle_parts/content_prod/63236

fits well and I can wear it under leathers or summer jacket.

thankfully not had to test it out yet but I believe Knox have a good reputation .
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2010 R6 - Love it

[G]

If you have trouble getting clothing to fit, I'd suggest you look at getting some altered to fit.
For under £100 for a set of second hand one piece leathers and £100 to have them altered I've had a set of 'made to measure' leathers a lot cheaper than it'd cost to get them actually made to measure.

[-Matt-]

[G]

My trick was to buy one a bit too big, so it had to be altered down.

With that and someone that knows what they're doing, it should be as strong as the original garment - maybe even stronger if they're good and the original isn't - as you're just taking a bit out and redoing the stitching on a fresh piece of leather.
If you need to get stretch panels sewn in, then you may be losing a bit - however they should only put them in places where it won't be an issue.

I was certainly fine crashing multiple times at high speed when racing in mine.

From what you're saying, I'm still not seeing why you think they're such a good idea?
You say, I believe, that you appreciate they're not considered to be worth it for protecting the back.
So do you only think that "its worth it without doubt if you have the budget" for the anecdotal evidence they may protect other parts of the body?

In my experience a strap on back protector can move around a fair bit under the leathers - I've certainly been able to reposition them fine and move it a fair bit with my leathers on. So, it's limited by how much the straps move - and with them generally being elastic, that's a fair bit.
However one in a pocket is limited by how much the leather moves, which is generally a lot less.

[-Matt-]

I could 'shuffle' mine but i'm not sure it would nescessarily slide up beyond the neck, it could perhaps skid around over my back i'm sure, but the push to get it to bump up above the neck considering the shape i'd be dubious of - again to be clear, not ruling it out, and if anyones seen otherwise i'll sit back down

[G]

[-Matt-]

The level 2 vs level 1 thing i consider just as a simple 'quality' issue really - if something in 'test 2' takes x-force more than something in 'test 1' i'd go for test 2 - it doesn't at all remove risk or chance of injury by any means but if i'm going to spend on safety i'd go for the next level.

I appreciate this attitude has its calling points like when does it stop, airbag suits, helmets in cars etc etc, but if two things almost identical are available for relatively little price difference in terms of how long i intend to use them i'd rather go for the little extra.

In terms of it being 'back protection' i do mean in the most literal sense that really - it protects 'the back' it absorbs impact to an extent across the region of the back, i wouldn't consider it a BARRIER to back damage by any means, particulary side impacts as i mentioned.

I would say though the one accident i have had i went a good 15 foot over the car and landed square on my back mid slide, and i didn't feel a thing. Again i can't call that as evidence against or for it as its a single case, but had i NOT been wearing a back protector in that instance i'm damn sure my back would of been in a dreadful state - but i'm not saying that proves or disproves anything in the larger more technical picture, thats just my only personal experience of them coming into play.

[barrkel]

[G]

As ever, I generally just question. In this case I'm not really seeing any good justification behind the answers.
To me, it still seems to boil down to a bit of "shut up and take my money".

I do also do my research of course - and I hadn't before realised that they were considered quite so useless. I'm impressed that the very standards used to test them also discredit their use.
When I've got a minute, I'll look up the study - it may be the study it's self wasn't well researched.

While back protectors may absorb impact, it seems that doesn't do much usefully as far as protecting your spine.
As ever with armour, it can not reduce force, it can only dissipate it across space and time.

I've had plenty of crashes where I've landed on my back without a 'serious' back protector and never had an issue from that.

I hear an awful lot of anecdotes of medical people saying "you're lucky you had your gear on". However, this never seems to be in any way substantiated. It seems to be just 'something people say'.

Also, I reckon that more nastier accidents happen on slower corners if anything.
At speed, there's less chance of a highside (but a fast highside can be really, really nasty), less other bikes and less chance of a low side from excess power. Less likely to braking hard and deep in to them.
And the vast majority of tracks have plenty of run off on the faster corners (just not where my brakes failed at Lydden, though that was going in to a slow corner).
However, something like minimoto you're relatively less likely to hurt yourself - as you're already on the floor. I say that, then I remember back to when the minimoto place we go to used to be on a tarmac track. Got a nasty knock to the head when it flicked me off - the current place with polished concrete tends to just see you sliding.

[-Matt-]

Interesting points - particularly the thread, quite harrowing

I've always considered the 'increased' levels of protection i.e level 2 vs level 1 to not really be 'harder' as such but more they're ability to disperse the impact be more efficient. The way [the 2 strap on protectors i've had] were made, were to form a sort of concave 'shell' of armour, so any impact would first crack through this layer if strong enough, THEN the force displace over the back - i suppose though this could be the point at which the 'cracked plate' is forced into the back causing more damage

I'm sure theres definately cases as you mentioned 'rigid' protection actually causes more injuries, i can imagine something similar with an old pair of Sidi boots i had that were buckled and braced to such an extent although they no doubt protect the ankle and lower foot anything mid-leg impact wise would of near sheered it off.

Its very difficult overall i think even with a few cases behind each side of the arguement to really point-black rule out which side of the arguements right or not. I just see it as a 'shell' personally, that i hope will crack before i do, as with the majority of gear i wear.

If the shell fails, or malfunctions and causes injury then i'm still fucked, maybe even more fucked, but the chances the shell reduces or stops damage to me personally i think outweighs the other options.

[-Matt-]

[Fifteen15]

This thread and the links have kept me busy for a good hour, really interesting. Shame TC doesn't post anymore, the experience that guy has is phenominal.

What he does't explain though is why he blames his £300 plastic fantastic boots for his broken femur, saying that if he had worn cheaper boots, he would still have his leg. I'm guessing the impact to his boot transferred the force from his foot all the way up his leg?
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"Pain is weakness leaving the body, and blood makes the grass grow faster...but I'll wear my gear anyway"

[kramdra]

Im looking to buy a back protector, likely one of the foam, jacket pocket types.

The Knox ones look good but I notice they are only level 1.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Knox-Advance-X-Back-Protector-Insert-CE-Approved-/380576560781/


these are level 2
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Revit-Seesoft-back-protector-insert-KN-/181175204103/

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Forcefield-Back-Protector-Replacement-Insert-Pro2-002-Motorcycle-Armour-/200828124557

Opinions?

Ofcourse it also needs to fit my jacket and I realise my jacket is far too big. Planning to get another