 |
|
 |
|
|
| Author |
Message |
| Fuzzbiker |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Fuzzbiker
L Plate Warrior
Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Karma :  
|
 Posted: 22:00 - 17 Sep 2013  Post subject: Specific Bike/Garage advice needed |
 |
|
Well, first of all, a cordial "hello" to everyone!
Hope I'm posting in the right section... I need some advice from you lot who have experience with bikes!
Passed my CBT in May this year, and purchased a second hand 2003 Vespa ET4 125 (don't laugh, we've all got to start somewhere!) - got it from a garage (well, specifically it was supposedly the ex bike of a mechanic at said garage, he sold it to me direct, albeit under the nose of his boss...), 17K on the clock, had new wheels fitted, two previous owners (if memory serves me right?) and supposedly a full service
Only problem is, the bloody thing hasn't been working right for the past month and a half. I gather that it's a familiar problem with these bikes, i.e. losing power at (relative!) high speed/full throttle. Took it in to the garage about 3/4 weeks ago and they ended up replacing the exhaust comp, the plug, the plug cap, the variator, the coil, air filter and the carburettor needed TLC as well. Grand total (including labour and VAT) came to more than half what I originally payed for the little bastard, utterly gutted!
To make things worse, the problem is still occurring, only now it's also not starting easily... Bad to worse, plus the back brake's on its way out! I'm going to be taking it back tomorrow to get an estimate from the garage to se how much they're gonna rob me for this time... Anyway, after all this palava, here's my question:
Was I fleeced? I paid a grand for this bike, but surely this much shouldn't have gone wrong with it in such a short space of time?
Bear in mind that I know precious little about bikes, and therefore can't really fart around with the guts of the machine myself, not least because I don't have a garage to do it in!
It was meant to be a fun way to get used to London riding, leading up to bigger and better bikes, but frankly it's been a(n expensive) nightmare for the last month or so.
Thanks in advance for your help, everyone! |
|
| Back to top |
  |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
| shaanaleem92 |
This post is not being displayed .
|
shaanaleem92
Nitrous Nuisance
Joined: 30 Jul 2013
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 22:49 - 17 Sep 2013 Post subject: |
|
|
Im a newbie so of no help,
But sounds like a horrible experience, especially as its supposed to get you going and eventually onto bigger bikes in future.
Im sure theres a lot of reliable options regarding bikes, for about a grand's worth of money.
Hopefully someone with more experience can post somwthing that will actually help 
But good luck going forwards |
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Teflon-Mike |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Karma :  
|
Posted: 02:33 - 18 Sep 2013  Post subject: Re: Specific Bike/Garage advice needed |
|
|
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Well, first of all, a cordial "hello" to everyone! |
Hello and cordial welcome in return.
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Hope I'm posting in the right section... I need some advice from you lot who have experience with bikes! |
Close enough. We're generally pretty tolerant.. though ped-bois and cruiser riders get some stick... actually any-one can get stick.. but cruiser riders and ped-bois deserve a little extra!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Passed my CBT in May this year |
NO YOU DIDN'T!
Compulsary Basic Training... the T in CBT stands for Training not Test. No Test, nothing for you to 'pass' or 'fail'. You got given your DL196 by completing the course and simply not making the instructor reach for his apoplexy tablets! (reminds me.. must make apointment to see Doctor, I think I need a refill!  )
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | and purchased a second hand 2003 Vespa ET4 125 (don't laugh, we've all got to start somewhere!) |
Ok... sorry.. can I just 'snigger' a little? 
Yeah... we all start some-where... and I suppose it at least has 'Vespa' on the side, not the usual 'Chav' I really wanted Saxo but this is all I'm allowed to terrorise you with for now, sort of brand-name!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | got it from a garage |
Well, that was a silly thing to do... as you seem to be learning... the expensive way... but still...
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | well, specifically it was supposedly the ex bike of a mechanic at said garage, he sold it to me direct, albeit under the nose of his boss |
even sillier, really... Never buy a used car, bike, scooter or lawn mower from a 'Mechanic'... or a house from a builder, or a Hi-Fi from an electrician, or a computer from an IT technician... They know ALL the bodges! Especially if you are an inept 'newby' unlikely to spot'em!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | 17K on the clock, |
... after mechanic wound it back a few thousand clicks...
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | had new wheels fitted, |
... bad sign... wheels dont tend to wear out... tyres might, but new wheels? Usually means the bikes been broken some-how.. like being run over by a lorry!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | two previous owners (if memory serves me right?) |
Not two 'Careful' owners? A qualifier that omits the dozen un-careful ones!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | and supposedly a full service |
Full Service? Probably a funeral one... though may have just been a blessing
A 'Service' can mean anything from just checking the cable adjustments to a full overhaul! But does sound good in the sales patter, doesn't it?
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Only problem is, the bloody thing hasn't been working right for the past month and a half. I gather that it's a familiar problem with these bikes, i.e. losing power at (relative!) high speed/full throttle. |
HERE we have to interject, and get you to qualify some stuff...
Have you been ragging the arse off it?
It's a little bike; a 10bhp twist and go scooter; its only designed to go 60mph, and even then, not really to be held flat out the whole while down duel carriageways. Its a town bike; intended for nipping through city snarl, on 30 & 40mph roads with perhaps BRIEF periods up to 60 along the ring road.
Thrash one, it WILL get hot; engine is hidden in the back, it dont get much air, it will tend not to like prolonged 'thrashing' with liklihood it could 'nip up' or the piston partially sieze in the bore; of course, it can free up again, but the unhelpful metal on metal rubbing will have done damage, and problem likely to get worse.
Seem to recall that Vespa's, usefully, IMO tend to be heavier than most scooters; which can also put more load on the engine; and if you are a little more rotund than average, this will also make the problem more likely.
HAVE YOU CHECKED THE OIL?
Another cause of bikes siezing or nipping up. Again, frequentl caused by user neglect or numptiness. Believe your bike is a two-stroke; it probably has a reservoir under the seat you have to keep filled with special 'two-stroke' oil, which the engine pumps into the engine and ultimately burns off in whats known as a 'Total Loss' system. So the oil level is continually dropping. When it runs out; bearings dont get oil, metal touches metal, gets hot and lumps try welding themselves together... its really not very nice! Four=strokes of course, have a 'recirculating' lubrication system, oil in the crank-case splashed about or pumped around to lubricate bits, before sloching back to the sump; they tend not to burn thier oil unless they are seriousely worn out; and you can get away with not checking and occasionally forgetting to change the oil; but NOT on a two stroke.
And we NEED to rule out user abuse or neglect before we start grumbling about garages who may or may not have sold you a dog in the first place!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Took it in to the garage about 3/4 weeks ago and they ended up replacing the exhaust comp, the plug, the plug cap, the variator, the coil, air filter and the carburettor needed TLC as well. Grand total (including labour and VAT) came to more than half what I originally payed for the little bastard, utterly gutted! |
Well, there's another lesson... Garage rates are expensive. Like £30 per hour or more expensive. And on a cheap 'vehicile' small jobs can mount up quickly to the point of 'Beyond Ecconomical Repair'... bottom line is, a mechanic needs to pay himself a living wage, cover the overheads of his workshop, and investment & tools etc... if it takes two minutes to change a spark plug, that's £1 of his time, whether he's working on a £300 moped, or a £300,000 Ferarri!
You buy a cheap bike; you either have to factor in that just cos the thing didn't cost much to buy, doesn't mean it wont cost a lot to maintain; OR find other ways to ecconomise, and say; "Well! Its only a cheap bike! If I fuck it up trying to fix it myself, no great loss!"
However... list of random stuff they changed... do you know what any of that stuff is? Or does?
exhaust comp (complete)
the plug
the plug cap
the variator
the coil
air filter
carburettor adjustment
That sounds to me like diagnostics by replacement. Ie they hadn't got a fucking clue what was wrong with it, so randomly replaced stuff till it seemed 'better'.....
Plug... they are about £3 and the starting point for diagnostics, and two-strokes do appreciate new ones; so reasonable enough...
Air-Filter... Hmmm... thought you said, they said it had a 'Full Service'.... air-filters are a service spare.... unless you had damaged it some-how, removing thr air-box cover and letting it get wet, or have ridden through the Sahara, getting it clogged with sand, it should be good for 10K miles or more.... OK, lets give them the benefit of the doubt... when 'serviced' it wasn't replaced, it was just checked knocked clean and deemed 'OK' for a few more miles... which you did, and it did need replacing... still should only be a £5 part.
Carburettor adjustment? Yup, service procedure; check the idle speed set the throttle cable, adjust the mixture screw; especially after replacing air-filter and spark plug.... not listed, BUT would expect them to have also adjusted the two-stroke oil metering pump adjustment also, as that's metering rate is similarly varied by the throttle.
Spark-Plug Cap? Hmmmm I have seldom had problems with plug caps breaking down; getting damaged, yes, and on a scooter might be more vulnerable to damage from road debris, but? Swapping plug capos usually indicates an ignition fault, and they dont want to delve too deeply, and try the cheap/quick fix first... another £5 for a plug cap.
Coil? So changing the plug lead didn't remidy the problem then?
Coil is another 'fairly' easy substitution test; BUT coils can be expensive... and I have a feeling that for your bike they may have the 'integrated' electronics of the CDi unit and be exhorbitantly expensive? How much was it?
Old fasioned ones, that are simple coils, DO tend to be pretty reliable. People talk of them 'Breaking Down'... and they can, but they usually have to have been on bikes a long time and or cranked up hell of a lot of miles before they start playing silly buggers; more often, faulty coils are caused by heavy handed mechanics yanking the spark-plug gap off, and the bonded in HT lead being pulled out of the rubber coil-body, I have found! Not uncommon, either. And only partly excuseable on a newby bike.
I would have been asking pertinant questions about that... actually I wouldn't as I wouldn't have let a paid mechanic anywhere near it... BUT, I would have been asking why they repolaced ALL the ignition system near enough, and asking for the duff bits to examine.
Complete exhaust? Hmm... sounds like that MIGHT have been your REAL problem. Rotted through exhaust, can cause poor starting, loss of power, through mixture leaning out, and give symptoms 'like' an ignition fault....
OK.... so lets see the old exhaust, and where's the hole?
And IF it was the exhaust.... why did you not then replace my old ignition bits to check if I REALLY needed them?
What, cheaper to leave them on than take them off? OK... fair enough for the plug and plug cap, but how much was the coil again, and HOW many screws is it held on with? Two?
Oooh! You cant send it back? Well you work on a lot of these; wouldn't it be useful for you as a tool, for diagnosing other peoples exhaust problems? I mean you obviousely haven't invested £50K in the Kyrpton-Tune diagnostics machine so you can test ignitions and stuff BEFORE you buy bits I don't need?
Oh... you'll keep my OLD one for that... fair enough... so you taking the price of the new one off my bill then?
Ah I see... you only charge £30 an hour, if I want NASA kitted workshop facilties take my bike to the Franchise Piaggio dealer and pay £130 per hour instead?
Fair enough I suppose... but you STILL fitted a part I dont need to my bike, charged me for it and have kept the old one... give me the old on eback then... I can stick it on e-bay, and get a few quid back at least for it 2nd hand.......
Variator?!?!?!?!?!?!?
This is your clutch and gear-box. Loosing power, & poor running would not suggest a problem with that!
MORE impertinent questions....
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | To make things worse, the problem is still occurring, only now it's also not starting easily. |
So it sounds like they didn't actually get to the root cause of the problem....
And, back to where I was going with the oil and thrashing it questions; they have done stuff to the outside of the engine...
IF the thing was run out of oil, or thrashed too hard, and or with an exhaust fault... you could have nipped it up, and buggered the bore, or the bearings.
Fixing the cause of that, might have made it feel 'better' for a bit, but damage inside the engine still happening, still getting worse.
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Bad to worse, plus the back brake's on its way out! |
On its way out? Or out of adjustment?
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | I'm going to be taking it back tomorrow to get an estimate from the garage to se how much they're gonna rob me for this time! |
WHY... do you LIKE throwing good money after bad?
You suspected they were a bit 'sharp' from the start... and you trust them even less now I have ridiculed thier attempts to fix your bike...
Why bother? Do you really think they will do anything all that useful? Or will they just be rubbing thier hands together and thinking "OK, how much can we milk him for this time?!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Anyway, after all this palava, here's my question: Was I fleeced? |
Honestly? I dont think you were 'Fleeced', but a fool and his money are soon parted, and they have certainly parted you from a fair bit of it.
Scooter is ten years old; thats far from new; and learner legals are lightweight little machines that live in a world where they ARE going to get used, and used hard, AND by owners probably not all THAT clued up about how to ride them or look after them.
17,ooo miles, in ten years? that's NOT a lot. And if shineyed up, and scooters with all the whirly upy-downy bits covered with bodyworkl; can be shineyed up very well; £1000 probably not an unrealistic price tag, from a 'dealers'....
So I think you have fallen for the line a bit, and they have milked you rather.
Repairs? As said. Mechanics have to earn a living; you want best care service you go to franchise dealer with all the books and all the diagnostics equipment, and you pay thier mega-money labour rate.
You take it to a back-street boffin; who has to do it on an 'as best' basis; dioagnosing by replacement; you have to accept you are likely to end up paying for a few unnecessary bits, for the saving on thier hourly rate.
And YES they are likely to do the least they can get away with; maybe NOT just so they can max the revinue from you, though there is probably a degree of that; BUT because if they tried bottoming problems out fully, you would have a HUGE bill more than the bike was worth and not pay them at all!
And it Is something we get ALL THE TIME. Newbies experience is limited, yet expectations and aspirations are often huge, and few want to accept that they are to blame for anything; especially if it means admitting they were a bit 'stupid' into the bargain.
Fleeced? Not really. Taken advantage off? Perhaps a little. Miled a bit for continuing to be gullible? Well, that we'll see.
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | I paid a grand for this bike, but surely this much shouldn't have gone wrong with it in such a short space of time? |
Its not a brand new out the show-room machine with warranty!
You buy a second hand bike, you take your chances what might go wrong. And while it does show low miles, its ten years old. That is about the average life expectancy of a lightweight commuter bike.
Being brutal; you were lucky it worked in the first place! These things live hard lives; expected to work, every day, to earn thier keep, with limited performance of which a LOT is going to be used a LOT of the time, by people, who probably dont know how to ride them very well, or look after them that great either.
YES, that much can easily go wrong with an old bike; and more.
Should it? Well, IF it was as wonderfully sorted as described, probably not... but, it was a private, or at best 'trade' sale, 'sold as seen' or caveot-emptor, BUYER BEWARE... make sure you know what you are buying before you hand over the cash... and simple unfortunate fact here is, as a nieve newby, you didn't know enough and know where to look closely enough to see the stuff to make you walk away.
An expensive lesson. But a lesson.
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | Bear in mind that I know precious little about bikes, |
Well, you know a bit more now, than you did... dont you? Its ALL good stuff; what doesn't kill us makes us stronger and all that crapo.
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | therefore can't really fart around with the guts of the machine myself |
Bollox! If you can ride a bike; you can fix a bike. Got two hands, two eyes and a brain encha?
You might not WANT to far around fixing bikes, but no good reason you CANT!
I started when I was ten years old; and I had no work-shop manual; no credit card, no e-bay, no internet... I had a 'road-side repair' tool roll from Argos and a Shell book on the two-stroke engine, and that was it!
My lad, learned his mechanics doing a ground up rebuild on a Mini-Moto with me watching over his shoulder; he had it easy!
My O/H, a girly fer gawdsake with NAILS to risk breaking! Build her own geared 125 four-stroke twin from SCRAP! (See:- Pup-Project)
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | not least because I don't have a garage to do it in! |
Neither do I, and I've done four full ground up restoration projects in the last three years without such luxuary! You Wuss!
You can ride a bike in all weathers, but are scared of getting a bit wet changing the spark plug?!?!?
Where there's a will there is a way!
| Fuzzbiker wrote: | It was meant to be a fun way to get used to London riding, leading up to bigger and better bikes, but frankly it's been a(n expensive) nightmare for the last month or so. |
Well; personally, I would suggest you have a few choices.
1/ Stick the thing on Gumtree, cash it in for whatever you can get for it; let some-one else have the hassle. Start over.
And with the 'experience' think long and hard about what you have learned, and what I have said, and what you want to do.
You can have as much 'fun' with as little inconvenience and hassle as you like.... it JUST takes MONEY.
Buy a brand new scooter, of reputable brand, with a warranty; that will deliver what you expect and shouldn't need much attension, and if it does, get it done properly; pay the franchise mechanic.
Its simply aligning your aspirations with the ecconomic realities. And old addage you pays your money and takes your chances. You want less chances and more dances, you pay the higher tarrif!
2/ Keep it; get some tools; get a work-shop manual; see what you can do with it DIY. You MIGHT not make it any better; but you could learn a heck of a lot from the experience!
3/ Keep chucking good money after bad. Take it vack to shifty mechanics and see what they do this time. Take it some-where else; hope they do better and charge less.
Personally I'd opt for No2... but... I think my advice has to be think long and hard on No1...
If what you WANT is low hassle riding; pay the price to get it; the only way you can, with warrantiees, where you don't have the inclination to risk getting hands grubby or risks of landing a lemmon.
Showroom price of brand new ET4 is what? £4K ish. I know they ent cheap. And I could take the piss about how over priced they are, like I do similarly priced YZF-R125, but I do know that they hold thier value bludy well.
New bike, you WILL loose shed load of money, in depreciation, but thats what garantees COST... you pay it, or you accept risks.
Reward is you get the hassle free riding you say you want.
Second hand, from franchise dealer? Not so many garantees, it is used. you dont know by who, or how, or where; BUT from franchise dealer, and still RELETIVELY new, as in under five years old, you ought to have some assurance its a decent enough buy not SO likely to go wrong, and you should, for still pretty hefty premium over private sale, get some sort of warranty on it. £2-2.5K?
THAT is what you have to pay for garantees.
But private? £1500-£2000? Might get a bike as good as from the dealer for £500 less; might even be in slightly better nick for your money; some suggestion it ought to be low hassle, BUT no garantees.
And as bikes start to get older, past five years, half thier anticipated service life.... well, chances are its at least half buggered.... so you are saving money, but factorially accepting risk of hassle and expense.
Your call... But... £1700 for a three year old, first MOT fresh Yamaha YBR geared learner-commuter motorcycle, from a franchise dealer with 3-month 1000mile warranty, is probably about the 'optimum' deal for price vs risk vs actual hassle in a learner-legal motorbike.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
|
| Back to top |
 |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| suburban myth |
This post is not being displayed .
|
suburban myth
Spanner Monkey
Joined: 13 Feb 2013
Karma : 
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Rogerborg |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Rogerborg
nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma : 
|
| Posted: 10:29 - 18 Sep 2013 Post subject: |
|
|
| suburban myth wrote: | It's gonna be difficult to follow Tef's very informative post |
Oh, what rage-froth hath he vomited forth now?
OP, you've been had. Every dodgy dealer will sell you their own vehicle / the same one they drive/ride, in order to get shot of it.
You can get into a barney with the garage over if if you like. For one thing, it appears that a lot of the work that they did was unnecessary. But it'll be a long struggle, and hard to prove anything without paying out even more money.
The scoot is a lemon, so I'd cut my losses, sell it on as such, and chalk it up to experience.
Or better yet, buy a Haynes and some spanner and get fettling. If you sort it, you win. If you don't, you learn something and know more about what to look for in your next bike.
Sorry, but there's no easy answer.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Fuzzbiker |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Fuzzbiker
L Plate Warrior
Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Karma :
|
Posted: 20:20 - 18 Sep 2013  Post subject: |
|
|
Wow, that was one hell of a reply, cheers Mike!
Thanks to the rest of you as well - I think this place is going to be a goldmine of advice, information and help, really appreciate folks taking the time to give a gormless twat patient advice!
Went to the garage today to get an estimate, was told to come back next week as the bloke that did (possibly needless) repairs on my bike wasn't there. I stared at at the bloke til he started to shift uncomfortably, after which I got on my bike and said "don't expect any further custom or recommendation from me, thanks for nothing", and sped off (thankfully not breaking down, that would have been beyond awkward ha ha ha)
Regarding the CBT, I'm aware it's not a "pass or fail" thing, just being lazy with my terminology, ya pedantic swine
The reason I got the Vespa was because I figured it would hold its value. Ahem. 'Nuff said.
Regarding all your diagnosis, thanks very much for that - depressing reading but it all makes sense.
I'm not going to get rid of it, sounds rather like giving up - I'll take your advice and have a crack at it myself. I think the problem is the fuel tap/petcock (titter titter) needs replacing, why the mechanics didn't do it is beyond me. I know nothing about bikes yet it seems people have solved the problem by doing just this.
So, time to get myself a container, a new fuel tap, a plastic tube and a few fuel line clips! Hopefully it works out....
Also going to have a crack at changing the front suspension if I don't cock that up. not sure about fixing the back brake though...
As for running it ragged, not really - it has to do about 10 minutes on the dual carriageway on my way to work, shouldn't be too much of a struggle at all, and I'm not a total lardarse
Of course, I've checked the oil twice since buying it, no problem there (incidentally, it's a four stroke, not two)
I really like the idea of fixing my own machine, just avoided it out of being worried I'd cock it up further, although it seems I could hardly have done much worse, given the circumstances! Time to get messy, methinks.
So thanks, all! Will give it a bash soon as I can! |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| swampy |
This post is not being displayed .
|
swampy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Karma :
|
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
|
| Fuzzbiker |
This post is not being displayed .
|
Fuzzbiker
L Plate Warrior
Joined: 17 Sep 2013
Karma :
|
| Posted: 21:25 - 18 Sep 2013 Post subject: |
|
|
London!
Ooooh carrots!
Would be great to be shown the ropes by someone, but I'm obviously not expecting anything |
|
| Back to top |
| |
You must be logged in to rate posts |
|
 |
Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 13 years, 31 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
 |
|
|
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.38 Sec - Server Load: 1.43 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 86.57 Kb
|
Help & FAQs
Search BCF
Members
Groups
Events Calendar
rating
rating