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Petrol in oil diagnoatic / advice needed

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Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 23:42 - 16 Dec 2013    Post subject: Petrol in oil diagnoatic / advice needed Reply with quote
Got a 'phone call from my lad. He's away at his girlfriend's house.
Seems he's got petrol in his oil. You now have as much info as I have.
Bike is 03 Varadero XL125V.

Obviously he'll have to get sorted.
However, wondered what may be the cause(s) and fix(es).
I'm not sure if this is a common fault. Although I'm surprised.

This is just so he might not get ripped off when trying to fix.
He has no tools* so hopefully will take it to someone who can help.


Thanks in anticipation Thumbs Up


* viewers of previous posts will recall his favourite tool is a hammer and if that doesn't fix the issue it has to be an electrical fault Very Happy
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WD Forte
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Joined: 17 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: 23:57 - 16 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Running rich maybe?
get him to whip a plug out and have a look
It should be a nice tan/light brown colour if its black and sooty it may be over fueling.
Depending on the mileage and use, it could be worn rings
allowing fuel past.

Also check the choke is fully opening when 'off'
this can also also cause a motor to run rich
This is assuming its a carb bike, I dont know the varadero first hand,
If its fuel injected a bad temp sensor can cause it to run rich
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Kickstart
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Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 16 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hi

Sticking carb float / dirt in needle valve would be my first guess. Made a lot worse by leaving it on prime (if a vacuum fuel tap).

All the best

Keith
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Fizzer Thou
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
As Keith has just suggested,it sounds as though the combustion chamber has flooded with petrol because the fuel tap has not been switched to the 'OFF' position when left standing for any length of time.

It would be best to drain the engine oil and replace the filter before running the engine as thinned with petrol engine oil will not lubricate things like cam bearings at all well and will cause premature cam and follower damage.
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Brolly Dolly



Joined: 14 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: 10:51 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
as above, common on zuki's with crappy vacuum taps. get it out asap, new oil and filter. check float valves and fuel tap and repair as needed. if it was just left on prime then make sure its only left on or reserve.
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Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 11:46 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thanks for the advice.
I think he was scared it was a piston related and/or gasket/seal and it would need a costly strip down and rebuild.

I've recommended he do a complete oil/filter change and check his petrol tap (I refrain from slipping into American and saying petcock, although I do like the term Embarassed ).

I'm not sure the Varadero is vacuum fed as tap has on/off/res settings. For vacuum I'd not expect on off but on/res/prime.

I'm reluctant to get him to fiddle with carbs as experience when he had a scooter was they can be fubared easily in the wrong hands. However, if needs must.

I will post the results if he tells me. No news would be good news I'm thinking.
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Gibbs, what did Duckie look like when he was younger? Very Happy
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weasley
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Taking a step back a moment - what evidence is there that there is petrol in the oil? A faint whiff from the oil filler cap or a gas chromatography trace?

It doesn't take much petrol to make a smell and a short journey or cold start may be enough to make the oil smell of petrol.

If you want to solve the problem, first of all make sure there is one.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 14:03 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
Taking a step back a moment - what evidence is there that there is petrol in the oil? A faint whiff from the oil filler cap or a gas chromatography trace?

It doesn't take much petrol to make a smell and a short journey or cold start may be enough to make the oil smell of petrol.

If you want to solve the problem, first of all make sure there is one.

Earliest indicator of fue in oil is high level. Oil doesn't grow Smile
Drain and flush ASAP to prevent mains and big end damage. Fuel thins oil meaning no protection. It also washes the film off the bore/s too.
Fuel in oil can be detected by a flash test but require an accurate thermometer and a safe area to ignite the fuel. Oil shoul ignite at a known min. temp when a naked flame or spark is near any vapour. Fuel dilute oil will produce vapour at a lower temp so will ignite easier.
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Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
...Fuel in oil can be detected by a flash test ...Oil shoul ignite at a known min. temp when a naked flame or spark is near any vapour...

I am not going to impart that information.
Before I know it he'll be checking his petrol level with his cigarette lights (it's dark in that tank you know).

Have tried to get more info but now not answering txts.
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...and the whirlwind is in the thorn trees, it's hard for thee to kick against the pricks...
Gibbs, what did Duckie look like when he was younger? Very Happy
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weasley
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Joined: 16 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Earliest indicator of fue in oil is high level. Oil doesn't grow Smile


True enough, but high level can also be caused by coolant ingress. That said, this wasn't offered as evidence, m'lud.

Walloper wrote:
Drain and flush ASAP to prevent mains and big end damage. Fuel thins oil meaning no protection. It also washes the film off the bore/s too.


All good advice. Thumbs Up Assuming there is a problem. Wink

Walloper wrote:
Fuel in oil can be detected by a flash test but require an accurate thermometer and a safe area to ignite the fuel. Oil shoul ignite at a known min. temp when a naked flame or spark is near any vapour. Fuel dilute oil will produce vapour at a lower temp so will ignite easier.


Flash point testing can tell that some fuel is present, but again a very small amount can lower the flash point dramatically, especially if it is fresh fuel, freshly dosed into the oil. A small amount of fuel dilution can be accommodated but gross contamination is where things get whirr-grind-knockey.

Hopefully map can interrogate the defendant some more and get a confession.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 16:01 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
Walloper wrote:
Earliest indicator of fue in oil is high level. Oil doesn't grow Smile


True enough, but high level can also be caused by coolant ingress. That said, this wasn't offered as evidence, m'lud.

Walloper wrote:
Drain and flush ASAP to prevent mains and big end damage. Fuel thins oil meaning no protection. It also washes the film off the bore/s too.


All good advice. Thumbs Up Assuming there is a problem. Wink

Walloper wrote:
Fuel in oil can be detected by a flash test but require an accurate thermometer and a safe area to ignite the fuel. Oil shoul ignite at a known min. temp when a naked flame or spark is near any vapour. Fuel dilute oil will produce vapour at a lower temp so will ignite easier.


Flash point testing can tell that some fuel is present, but again a very small amount can lower the flash point dramatically, especially if it is fresh fuel, freshly dosed into the oil. A small amount of fuel dilution can be accommodated but gross contamination is where things get whirr-grind-knockey.

Hopefully map can interrogate the defendant some more and get a confession.


Fuel in oil will not dramatically affect oil's appearance. Coolnt in oil will be very clearly evident. Even if only a teaspoonfull in a gallon. So once again, the workshop is no place for virgins. Smile
There should be practically nil % fuel in engine oil. Flash test determine reliably that there is fuel in oil. Spectramascopic analysis can tell % but less than 5% is well beyond damage level.
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Mr Calendar



Joined: 14 Jun 2004
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PostPosted: 16:21 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
...
Walloper wrote:
Drain and flush ASAP to prevent mains and big end damage. Fuel thins oil meaning no protection. It also washes the film off the bore/s too.
All good advice. Thumbs Up Assuming there is a problem. Wink ...

IMHO it was about the time/mileage he should have been looking at doing oil and filter change anyhow. Little and often is always a good rule.

weasley wrote:
...Hopefully map can interrogate the defendant some more and get a confession.

Don't hold your breath. He's the kind of lad who you'd find alone covered in soot with the matches, petrol can and bonfire lit and still swear blind it wasn't him. If all else fails I'll let his mother have 'a quiet word' with him Very Happy
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...and the whirlwind is in the thorn trees, it's hard for thee to kick against the pricks...
Gibbs, what did Duckie look like when he was younger? Very Happy
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weasley
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
Walloper wrote:
Fuel in oil will not dramatically affect oil's appearance. Coolnt in oil will be very clearly evident. Even if only a teaspoonfull in a gallon. So once again, the workshop is no place for virgins. Smile


Again, all true. However, a gross coolant leak whilst laid up will raise oil levels and not be seen on the dipstick or sight glass. I'm playing devil's advocate here, because in reality this is an unlikely and rare occurrence.

Quote:
There should be practically nil % fuel in engine oil. Flash test determine reliably that there is fuel in oil. Spectramascopic analysis can tell % but less than 5% is well beyond damage level.


A small % of fuel dilution is OK... or at least it was when I was running a lubricating oil analytical laboratory department. Razz. In fact it is almost expected during the winter; one of my cars ran fine on 2-3% fuel dilution during the winter months - it all cleared up in the summer and all other indicators were normal (wear metals, TBN etc).

Let's see what 'the lad' can tell us.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 17 Dec 2013    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
Walloper wrote:
Fuel in oil will not dramatically affect oil's appearance. Coolnt in oil will be very clearly evident. Even if only a teaspoonfull in a gallon. So once again, the workshop is no place for virgins. Smile


Again, all true. However, a gross coolant leak whilst laid up will raise oil levels and not be seen on the dipstick or sight glass. I'm playing devil's advocate here, because in reality this is an unlikely and rare occurrence.

Quote:
There should be practically nil % fuel in engine oil. Flash test determine reliably that there is fuel in oil. Spectramascopic analysis can tell % but less than 5% is well beyond damage level.


A small % of fuel dilution is OK... or at least it was when I was running a lubricating oil analytical laboratory department. Razz. In fact it is almost expected during the winter; one of my cars ran fine on 2-3% fuel dilution during the winter months - it all cleared up in the summer and all other indicators were normal (wear metals, TBN etc).

Let's see what 'the lad' can tell us.


We'll bosh 80 Gals of oil in our Diesel Gensets for <5% fuel. <3% is probably normal background 'trend' considering insufficient loading at times. It seriously kills bearings though which is why good engineering practice dictates hoi-ing the oil and filters for new. $500 worth of engine oil is less than an FUBAR crank at the check-out. Smile

Another cause of suspected 'fuel' in the oil can be some silly cnut has topped up too much. Rolling Eyes
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