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5 richest families in UK worth more than the poorest 20%

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Ste
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PostPosted: 11:08 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: 5 richest families in UK worth more than the poorest 20% Reply with quote

The combined wealth of the UK's top five billionaires and their families is more than £28.1 billion, an Oxfam report says

The country's five richest families are wealthier than the poorest 20 per cent of the population, a leading charity has revealed.

A report by Oxfam showed that, at £28.2 billion, the combined wealth of the top five billionaires and their families is more than the £28.1 billion of the 12.6 million people who are society's poorest.

Titled A Tale Of Two Britains, the report shows that 0.1 per cent of the population have seen their income grow by £24,000 a year, while the incomes of the poorest 90% of Britons have gone up by an average of £2.82 a week, or £147 a year.

Britain's richest family, the Grosvenors, headed by the Duke of Westminster, has a fortune of around £7.9 billion, which is more than the bottom 10 per cent of the population combined.

The Grosvenors' wealth derives largely from owning 190 acres of real estate in London's Belgravia, near Buckingham Palace, according to the Forbes rich list.

Widening inequality creates a "vicious circle where wealth and power are increasingly concentrated in the hands of a few, leaving the rest behind," says the report.

"The extreme levels of wealth inequality occurring in Britain today threaten to exclude the poorest, whose standards of living are being squeezed as they are hit by increasing costs for basics like food and energy bills and cuts to services and support when they are most needed," it says.

The top five richest families also include David and Simon Reuben, whose £6.9 billion fortune comes from metals and property, and the Hinduja brothers, whose trucking and banking businesses have netted them £6 billion.

The Cadogan family is worth around £4 billion from owning property and land in Chelsea and Knightsbridge in London and Cadogan Estates, while the fifth richest person is Newcastle United FC owner and Sports Direct clothing chain boss Mike Ashley, whose fortune is valued at £3.3 billion.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 11:20 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't find it the least surprising that the poorest 20% combined aren't worth billions?

I wonder why Oxfam feel the need to highlight this.
Have they been taken over by anti-capitalist?

These families have wealth in property, not huge bank balances - and have to some extent simply been lucky.
They are big spenders, and help drive the economy.
They are the ones investing in business and providing capital for re-investments.

This means more competitive UKplc and better paid more secure jobs for more of us.
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have a problem with wealth gaps.

As long as it is wealth production, rather than rent seeking.


Wealth production and creation is good as it expands the pie.

Rent seeking is bad as the pie stays the same size it is just diverted to certain parties.

Quote:

The Grosvenors' wealth derives largely from owning 190 acres of real estate in London's Belgravia, near Buckingham Palace, according to the Forbes rich list.


Classic case of rent seeking, if the Grosvenors died tomorrow the land would still exist.

The rents paid to them would be spent elsewhere in the economy and therefore there is no benefit of them being there. There is no value added.


While compare a bloke who changes steel into cars. This adds value and creates jobs and therefore is good.
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Benno
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

lol just work hard lazy poor people there's enough money for everyone

https://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/PIU1hhJ1oldm0TqMzel4fg--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MzU0O2NyPTE7Y3c9NjMwO2R4PTA7ZHk9MDtmaT11bGNyb3A7aD0zNTQ7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/https://d.yimg.com/hd/ch7news/7_wa_news/7_wa_top/0905_1800_wa_rinehart_lrg_184ebbp-184ebbq.jpg?a=ch7news&c=7ff396e1259f62e7d91906fdfc6a7eef&mr=0&s=6d6a6ea5b3c36a77d2083f526efe75bf
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 11:27 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Re: 5 richest families in UK worth more than the poorest 20% Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
The combined wealth of the UK's top five billionaires and their families is more than £28.1 billion, an Oxfam report says

I'd be more interested in how the estimated gap has changed over the past decade. Better or worse? (I would think the gap tightened a little during the financial crisis and has since expanded as the financial and property markets have recovered.)
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 11:28 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:

I wonder why Oxfam feel the need to highlight this.
Have they been taken over by anti-capitalist?
.


UK isn't capitalist, at best it is corporate, at worst fascist

doggone wrote:

They are big spenders, and help drive the economy.

.



Really? can you count?

Lets say you have to pay £1000 in rent, DOG on here pays £1000 in rent I remember him saying he pays £12000 per year in rent.

£12000 goes to his landlord.

Ok imagine if he didn't have to pay £12000 in rent.

He now has an extra £12000 in his pocket per year. He would go out and spend this or save this or invest this.

How does DOG spending £12000 or his landlord spending £12000 differ? The classic rent seekers argument is I'm providing a service*

Yet there is no wealth created here, it is just a transfer and leeching from one person to another.

Therefore while DOG is poorer by £12000, £12000 hasn't been created or value added. So any spending by the landlord is just offset spending DOG would have made himself.



*the only rational argument in the case of I'm providing a service is IF you created the land or the buildings which exist on it yourself. Kansai International airport for example. They reclaimed the land from the sea, it did not exist before they built it.
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slowlydoesit
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatpies wrote:
Kansai International airport for example. They reclaimed the land from the sea, it did not exist before they built it.

And now, poetically enough, it's sinking back into the sea again.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

This again?

Take all the numbers from the bank accounts of those 5 families.

Distribute it among the poor.

Hurrah, everyone has slightly more numbers. And everything costs slightly more, to the exact same degree.
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doggone
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

fatpies wrote:


How does DOG spending £12000 or his landlord spending £12000 differ? The classic rent seekers argument is I'm providing a service*

Yet there is no wealth created here, it is just a transfer and leeching from one person to another.

Therefore while DOG is poorer by £12000, £12000 hasn't been created or value added. So any spending by the landlord is just offset spending DOG would have made himself.

.


So can he afford to buy there?
Rent is set by what someone else who also wants it is prepared to pay.
If the going rate was halved he'd be working for less or someone else on a lower income would live there.

The root cause of stupid high rents is too many people wanting to live in the same place.
They should move to Hartlepool or Scunthorpe Laughing
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fatpies
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

doggone wrote:


So can he afford to buy there?
Rent is set by what someone else who also wants it is prepared to pay.
If the going rate was halved he'd be working for less or someone else on a lower income would live there.

The root cause of stupid high rents is too many people wanting to live in the same place.
They should move to Hartlepool or Scunthorpe Laughing



Except isn't set at the free market.

Rent has all sorts of distortions attached to it.

Rent has a floor set by housing benefit.

It is distorted by council houses.

It is also distorted by government mandates on standards.

The very fact shanty towns and 'traveller' camps aren't allowed is proof of this.
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mogstar
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://society.theguardian.com/salarysurvey/table/0,12406,1042677,00.html

The charity chief execs are not going hungry either...
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:59 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait...

I'm confused? Don't we all hate the poor because they're all money grabbing doleys? Or worse still immigrant doleys?

As always this misses the point - don't hate the rich or the poor. We would all do broadly similar to what the Grosvenors do given half the chance. Instead, the problem comes from the game we are playing... If you want equality then change the system... maybe get rid of inheritance, or maybe reset credit histories and bank accounts (fight club style or otherwise), perhaps we could get rid of ownership - property laws based purely on usage?

People will always do the best for themselves, change the rules of the game if you want it played differently.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 17 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
perhaps we could get rid of ownership - property laws based purely on usage?


I was debating anarchists on this last night, the whole private vs personal property stuff too.

Apparently I can own a lathe as my own possesion for fun/hobby and that is fine. I can use the lathe for my own self-employed business and that is okay too. If employ someone else to use the very same lathe, when the business grows, the lathe magically turns into private property and I've made the employee a wage slave (that's bad). If I rent out the lathe at a flat rate, but the guy who hires the lathe gets to keep all his output apparently it's a borderline whether it is good or not.

IMO, it's just a man with a lathe, the lathe is his and he can do wtf he wants with it.
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dydey90
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PostPosted: 09:24 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, let's slaughter the rich people and distribute their wealth equally among Her Majesty's subjects. It equates to £445.99 each.

Will that make a huge impact on anybody's life?
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Benno
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PostPosted: 09:39 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

dydey90 wrote:
Ok, let's slaughter the rich people and distribute their wealth equally among Her Majesty's subjects. It equates to £445.99 each.

Will that make a huge impact on anybody's life?


The nightlife and sex industries will experience a boom followed shortly by a bust (heh)
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

smegballs wrote:
I was debating anarchists on this last night, the whole private vs personal property stuff too.

Apparently I can own a lathe as my own possesion for fun/hobby and that is fine. I can use the lathe for my own self-employed business and that is okay too. If employ someone else to use the very same lathe, when the business grows, the lathe magically turns into private property and I've made the employee a wage slave (that's bad). If I rent out the lathe at a flat rate, but the guy who hires the lathe gets to keep all his output apparently it's a borderline whether it is good or not.

IMO, it's just a man with a lathe, the lathe is his and he can do wtf he wants with it.


Yeah, you're quite right. I don't particularly know what the answer is. What I do know is that blaming one section of society for all of society's ills is the main thing that retains the status quo. Anarchy is a nice idea until people stop playing nice or need to get a big task accomplished.

Instead of working for a complete overhaul everyone tugs gently in different directions for minor changes... tax the rich more! stop the benefit cheats! give me more money and take it from 'them'! We will never have a reformed society in this way.

I personally think getting rid of inheritance would be the best way... inheritance tax at 100% then it either gets spent or shared around. Probably wouldn't work in an international economy though - borders would have to be closed to prevent money leaving before death.

Problem is though, I think everyone has it just nice enough now. You're never going to stop complaining, you're never going to give people all they want. But, it's just about good enough to keep everyone in their place.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:36 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why dont the poverty denyers just be upfront and say it "the poor are genetically inferior and should all be put on cattle trucks to a campo smewhere then a permenent solution found for them"
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boozehawk wrote:
Why dont the poverty denyers just be upfront and say it "the poor are genetically inferior and should all be put on cattle trucks to a campo smewhere then a permenent solution found for them"


Poverty deniers?

The majority of people who hold the views you mention there are hardly rich themselves... They are the striving middle classes... just enough to feel better than 'everyone else', but not enough to be comfortable in their wealth. They are as much trapped within the system as the poor, but are perhaps more blinded by the shiny objects dangled before them.
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John933
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PostPosted: 16:34 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

Must be one of the drafter's statement's made this year.

The chances are that the lower 20% have more debt than money. There for, if you have a pound in your pocket. There is a good chance that you are richer than all of the lower 20% in this country. In fact you could say the whole world.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 16:58 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

John933 wrote:
Must be one of the drafter's statement's made this year.

The chances are that the lower 20% have more debt than money. There for, if you have a pound in your pocket. There is a good chance that you are richer than all of the lower 20% in this country. In fact you could say the whole world.
John933


Well, it says the bottom 20% have £28.1bn between them. So not quite what you say. But I take your point... at some percentage there is less wealth than debt and most of us are above that.

As for the world - in the UK, if you're on an average wage then you're in the top 1% already*. That's what most people forget in this debate - arguing to be in the 1% of the 1% seems a little bit puerile.


*of earners, not wealth holders - slightly different I know...
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Last edited by daemonoid on 17:00 - 18 Mar 2014; edited 1 time in total
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 16:59 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm most definately poor, but I feel like I am living in a land of opportunity/golden age:

Food costs as a proportion of income are probably the lowest they have ever been ever.
I can (bar stuff like flying) for relativelty little expenditure (sub £200 quid) get the gear to try a new sport/activity on my doorstep.
For less than a hundred quid I can board a giant flying machine that costs millions of pounds and get a travel thousands of miles.
For my electronics hobby, components are so cheap it is laughable. I buy resistor packs from china that work out to about 0.1p per item.
I have access to the biggest repository of information in human knowledge which I can use to teach myself almost anything from crochet to rocket science.
For a relatively tiny amount of money, I can buy electronic items to access said resource.

Most poor people I know, and lots of my mates fall into this category, have themselves to blame for their lack of opportunities/fun. So many people I know complain about being "skint", yet seem to have a pint in their hand, iphone/galaxy in their pocket. If you spend it in the right places, you can have a shit load of fun on barely any cash.

Not to mention young, healthy people sitting on the dole and complaining how shit it is (again lots of mates in this category). Considering there are places all over the world that are willing to exchange work for food/accomodation + perks (sometimes). I can't see why anyone stays. If your going to be poor either way, do what I do and go be poor in a hot sunny country, whilst learning a skill/language at the same time. My plan for is sept/oct is to work in a portuguese surf resort (food, accomodation and free use of their gear), sure I won't be making any money, but I get to meet loads of new people and live on the beach surfing for two months for free.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

smegballs wrote:
I'm most definately poor, but I feel like I am living in a land of opportunity/golden age:

Food costs as a proportion of income are probably the lowest they have ever been ever.
I can (bar stuff like flying) for relativelty little expenditure (sub £200 quid) get the gear to try a new sport/activity on my doorstep.
For less than a hundred quid I can board a giant flying machine that costs millions of pounds and get a travel thousands of miles.
For my electronics hobby, components are so cheap it is laughable. I buy resistor packs from china that work out to about 0.1p per item.
I have access to the biggest repository of information in human knowledge which I can use to teach myself almost anything from crochet to rocket science.
For a relatively tiny amount of money, I can buy electronic items to access said resource.

Most poor people I know, and lots of my mates fall into this category, have themselves to blame for their lack of opportunities/fun. So many people I know complain about being "skint", yet seem to have a pint in their hand, iphone/galaxy in their pocket. If you spend it in the right places, you can have a shit load of fun on barely any cash.

Not to mention young, healthy people sitting on the dole and complaining how shit it is (again lots of mates in this category). Considering there are places all over the world that are willing to exchange work for food/accomodation + perks (sometimes). I can't see why anyone stays. If your going to be poor either way, do what I do and go be poor in a hot sunny country, whilst learning a skill/language at the same time. My plan for is sept/oct is to work in a portuguese surf resort (food, accomodation and free use of their gear), sure I won't be making any money, but I get to meet loads of new people and live on the beach surfing for two months for free.


Try the ski resorts in winter too. Chalet hosts seem to have a fairly decent life depending on the company...
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 18 Mar 2014    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
Try the ski resorts in winter too. Chalet hosts seem to have a fairly decent life depending on the company...


Already on it for later in the winter Wink

I think it was Bubbs on here that has done it before? Plus a few mates telling me their tales and it sounds awesome. Never ski'd or boarded before but it sounds like a laugh and what better way to learn that to be living in a resort.

I'm in my final months of uni, and to be honest rather than feeling like "that's the best years over with", I feel like I have a new dawn approaching that has far more potential for fun that ever before. I have no parental home to return to after uni and finally nothing to drag me back to the UK at the end of each summer.

One of the things I've wanted to do for years is go round europe collecting languages. I want to be fluent (or at least good conversational) in French and German (can already read french okay and A grade GCSE german), plus spanish/portuguese. Spanish is more useful, but I like portugal more and already speak tourist-tier portuguese. Now I'm finally free to do stuff like that.

The way I see things, there is definately the potential for a not-so-nice world in the years to come, so I want to make the most of the world as it is and extract all the fun I can while I can.
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