good old bike for a2

[Andy1994]

Hi all just wondering what old bike from around 1970 onwards i cam ride on a a2 license. I like the look of old bikes like the honda superdreams and yami rd. I was wondering what other old bikes i can ride which are not an arm and a leg to buy cheers for any help

[Teflon-Mike]

[Az]

[Andy1994]

A budget of around 2k i would prefer a bike that dosnt need to be restricted as i feel it will just strain the engine and id rather not do that to be honest and as for preference as long as parts are easy to get hold of i really dont mind.

[Az]

With a £2k budget why are you not considering anything more modern with a dated design?

Such as the first generation Yamaha Fazer 600's or Suzuki Bandit 600's? Maybe even a Suzuki GSX750 could be an option. Parts will be easy to find, restricting the bikes won't affect their reliability or strain the engine as much as you may think and they'll be within your £2k budget easily.

[Teflon-Mike]

EVERY bike is 'restricted' whenever you ride it at anything but wide open throttle, at peak power rpm. All a restrictor does is limit how much air can get into the engine, just like the throttle does.

Absolutely no reason that a 'restricted' bike should be 'strained' in any way by having a 'permenant' restrictor in it; while reducing loading on parts from limiting power is actually going to reduce strain, and wear and tear.

Only bikes that wont take so kindly to restriction are two-strokes; which rely so much on 'resonance' tuning effects to work in the first place, and are tuned for higher power at the expense of low and mid range, giving harsh power delivery or 'power-bands', restriction, that simply clips the power peak, tends to make them rather... err... pointless... its usually that wild power ramp you want one for.

Anyway, if you don't want a restricted engine, but naturally A2 compliant bike... well... you are going to be a bit challenged.

1975, Moto-Guzzi has a pretty unsophisticated 500cc two-valve per cylinder, push-rod V-Twin engine. It makes bang on A2 licence power limit of 47bhp, BUT at 160Kg, even that is too light to meet power to weight criteria and would demand even that be clipped of a couple of ponies.

RD350LCs are off the menu; 50bhp, and again, less than 160Kg, and a two-stroke. You might just eek a 35bhp 250LC.

Of the old air-cooled smokers, the RD400 at 40bhp is under power limit, and at 200Kg over weight, so would be OK. But these are in what I would certainly consider 'arm a leg' price range, and 250's don't seem far behind.

Honda CB400 'four' of 1976, four cylinder four-stroke screamer; 37bhp and 185Kg, would just about eek in on A2;

500-four and 550'four are 200Kg, but an eek over power limits. So most four-cylinder bikes of the era are going to be out of bounds, UNLESS you are prepared to restrict.

Means that you would have to look at smaller capacities, twins and singles; and carefully. Honda CB250RS four-valve 250 single of 1981 vintage, made 31bhp, but weighed in at just 135Kg, so is only 'just' within A2 licence power to weight limits.

Means you would be looking at stuff like Yamaha XS250's; Honda Super-Dreams, Suzuki GSX400's; Kawasaki GPz250/305's; and the like,

And MOST of which will have spent the 70's 80's and 90's in Learner/Post Learner Commuter Hell as poor mans hacks, being run into the ground;

And what you are likely to find NOW, is most likely to be prettily painted scrap, tarted up on a budget by an optimist who wants a project but cant afford to do anything more exiting or valuable; so it'll be painted nicely, and might even have an MOT, but like as not, the mechanicals will all be bodged to buggery with reclaimed parts barely in better nick than what they replace from generally dire pool of source bikes... might be 'OK' for a couple of gentle sunny day excursions to a classic meet... but NOT what I would want to rely on as every day transport.

Meanwhile; parts... you want something that is easy to get bits for, but have a £2K budget?

- Do you want a Project Bike to restore?
- Do you want a Show-Rider / Parade bike to go to occasional classic meets on?
- Do you want a practical 'every day' classic you can ride to work in all weathers?

When it comes to restoring old bikes, where there's a will, there's a way, and you can almost always find bits, if you have the money, and the time to hunt them out.

That's the rub. time and money.

If you have a project, then you can usually take your time to hunt bits down, that's part of the challenge; and with a large lead time from taking a bike to bits, finding whats missing and whats unserviceable, easy to compile a shopping list to go hunt out, while you get on with other jobs.

If you have a Parade bike, that only ventures out the garage three or four times a year? Again, there's no great rush to find stuff, and no huge loss if you miss a meet.

If you have a classic as a daily rider; worse your SOLE way to work... then NOT being able to get the bit you need from wemoto 'next-day' can be severe pain in the arse.

SO, its all reletive... and what may or may not be more or less suitable for you REALLY depends on what you want the bike for.

You NEED to help us help you here!

What are your 'needs' what are your 'wants', and what is more important to you in that?

I'm going to take a guess from your user-name and fact query is hinging on A2 licence requirements that you were born 1994, so are 19/20 yrs. Which SUGGESTS, that you probably want a bike as every day 'sole' transport; not a sunny-sunday-show toy, or a big mechano kit.

If so; then with £2K in your pocket you have a GOOD budget to get a very useful motorcycle, with 'traditional' styling, or a very practical classic. BUT, you are going to have to restrict it.

I mentioned the Moto-Guzzi V50. This was my top choice for my O/H, when she was still planning to do her tests on a 125 for a 33 restricted licence.

Genuinely 'old' and of the era; its a very simple and easy to work on air-cooled push-rod engine. Conveniently has shaft drive, which means its low maintenance and what maintenance it may need is all VERY DIY friendly. Bike was in production for over ten years and sold well, here and in Europe; and with pretty stable design year on year, and very good model support, its very easy to get bits for.

Snowie actually didnt get one; she got a V750 Strada which is a later, bored out derivative, as a 'project' she's currently working on and blogging in show and tell if you want to have a look.

But, whole range of 'small-block' Guzzis share same basic engine, drive line and chassis, in capacities from 350 to 750, and most bar the latest 750's are likely to fall into your price range.

Its a good starting bench-mark; BUT, old bikes demand frequent care and attention. Living with a 'classic' is NOT for every one, and as an every day rider, can be a challenge, especially if you lack mechanical abilities or facilities.

I ride an 'old' Honda CB750... not the really desirable chrome mudguard and wire wheel Single-Over-Head-Cam 'K' unfortunately; they are rather expensive in good fettle, and even as basket cases for restoration, can fetch as much as my 199's 'Retro' is worth!

However, as an every-day 'ish' classic, its a pretty good bike. It was never a particularly inspiring machine; but it was very all-round capable. Air-Cooled four cylinder motor is not amazingly powerful, but it does have a nice, is somewhat small, surplus of power (not that this would be an issue for you, as you would have to restrict it anyway), and most of it in real world usable low and mid-range. Built in the 90's, it got then modern 17" wheel sizings, so benefits from a wide range of relatively good value, if not necessarily 'so' cheap 'modern' and radial tyres, unlike earlier models, for which choice is much more limited, and of poorer old fashioned construction. Likewise, has modern brakes; sourced I believe from the CBR600. Parts are on the shelf at weemoto or Dave silvers spares, and if I call before four in the afternoon and pay the expedited delivery, can be on my doorstep by ten the next morning.

Mine is now 21 years old and eligible in its own right for 'classic' insurance, while retaining modern bike spares support for new parts as well as good back-up from plenty being in the breakers for more expensive or unavailable bits.

And, where a wire wheel SOHC CB750 might fetch £6-7K and even scruffy comstar andplastic body SOHC's can make £3K+... and 8V DOHC FII's from the early 80's often have £2K asking prices... you can pick up a useful if not pristine example like mine for as little as £800 ready to ride, and pretty immaculate mid-life-crisis rider owned examples, for under £1500.

All the 'looks' and style of a traditional bike, all the day to day practicality and livability of a more modern one... without the added risks and complications of being clad in plastic and having a radiator infront of the header pipes.

It is NOT the only motorcycle in this same class.

Kawasaki GT550/GT750. Shaft drive, accross the frame air-cooled four; they were, in the 90's the Despatch riders favourite; comfy, low maintenance, and 'cheap'. Some real dogs about, but, folk that buy them, usually more interested in maintaining real mechanics than they are the pretty bits; so the scruffy 'heap' often proves to be well looked after gem, when you scrub away the layers of matt-black and ACF50, where you get something like an RF600 or ZZR600, you find that under shiney plastic, everything is red rusty and siezed, having been out of sight and out of mind and never been touched. these tend to be really cheap, sub £500 clunkers, but you can find nice tidy ones for around a grand.

Kawasaki Zephyrs. they did a 550 and a 750; 1100 is the one people want, though and still command good money. 550 and 750, are the unloved, and again, can be a bargain; 90's bike, 70's styling; simpler air-cooled motor and still in the spares listings, while taking modern 17" tyre sizes. And the 550's tend to be the cheapest, at at 50bhp and 180Kg they dont need much by way of restriction to make them A2 complient.

As AZ says, you have the more usual 'first big bikes' like the XJ600 Diversion; Bandit 600, and the early Fazers. Andmore if you look at larger twins. £2K might just eek you an early Kawasaki W650, or Triumph Bonaville... in fact either modern 'Hinkly' one, or the real deal, last of the line and least loved 'Meriden' T140's... would demand a bit more looking after, but possibly just as day to day practical, with a lot more genuine 'classic' cudos attached.

What about a 90's Ducati Monster? M600's are reletively plentiful, and well priced. Not the most reliable machines in the world, BUT, in the real world, a mid 90's Monster is probably no harder to live with than a less common late 70's Jap, like, I dont know... a Honda CB400N Super-Dream! PURELY because its fifteen twenty years younger!

I dont know... I'm chucking chaff in the wind to see what settles... maybe give you a few ideas... BUT you need to help us help you here, and end of the day, its your money, your bike; but a few clues as to what you want and need from it; could help us better offer suggestions.
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Andy1994]

Wow that was a lot more information then i expecte haha but cheers that really helped. You are right i am 20 and would be using it as an everyday commuter. Now i would like an old bike because i like the shape and would rather one where parts can be bought in a couple of days so rarer bikes would be out the question. I would mind one to take to classic meets at all i would be up for that. One thing i have been told that having a restriction will increase insurance cost as its classed a modification is this true. If not i wouldnt mind a more modern bike like what you stated (bandit, xj600 and others) i know that the bandit is a work horse as i looked at information on the before. I like the old bikes as its what ive been brought up around howevrr would it be more ideal to get one later as a restoration project instead of getting one now. Im not ruling out modern bikes at all. As for the ducati ive heard good things and bad are they anymore unrealible then a bandit or xj. Are they more expensive to insure and maintain. If not i would have a ducati. The monster is one of my favs of the ducatis so i wouldn't say no as long as its no more expensive to run then the other 600 bikes. Would getting the bandit with the faring be better for day to day also have you had any experience with the bandit, the xj or the monster. You have given me a lot of great insight and would likw to hear what you have to say now cheers.

[Conzar]

Oh my good fucking gracious Tef id expect your thumbs are squared off by now
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Current ride: ZX6R 636 ------- Previous:KTM EXC 450 Supermoto --- ZX6R B1H --Hornet 600--CBR 600--SV650
11:05:35 Rob Fzs: i just wanna own an rd350 valve before they send us to war with durkadurkastan

[Teflon-Mike]

[Rogerborg]

[MC]

[Andy1994]

Cheers for the help guys helped me a lot. Ive looked at a gs500 and i do like them and they are cheap to buy and maintain but will need some work done to it as ive read up about them as a consideration. Ive read up also as you stated that most will have been thrashed and crashed which would put me off but as you said look for a bike thats been looked after. But out of the three bandit, yamaha and ducati i would rather own the ducati out of all three. For riding it would be to work and back and general travel. But out of the two gs500 and ducati. I thinking would it be better to get the bigger bike firs, would it save money as im not buying a smaller bike first then sell it after?. But as for restriction how much on average would it cost to do say on the ducati as an example. Woud i need papers to prove i have it restricted. What would the certificate actually be used for whats its purpose. Can you help me out on the restriction side on needs to be done and how much itay cost cheers.

[Az]

[Andy1994]

Also another question if you would recommend a monster what year and model would you suggest as there are a few model from the 600 to the 696 which one from the bunch would you suggest is a good buy not saying they all are not good just which one would ou say is better. Or do a list from best downwards of the models cheers.

[Andy1994]

Im not slating the bandit i think they are a good bike and with mods they are better just as a stereo type bike they are more likely to be abused by people compared to a xj or other bike of that type. Maybe its because its the bandit name and they are cheap also because of the street fighter look. However with any bike as long as its looked after it will go on and on treat it well and it will return the favor

[Az]

[Andy1994]

[Teflon-Mike]

One of the things that appealed to me about the Monster over other ducatis is they are carbed not fuel injected... at at least SOME were. I'm not too clued up on them.
Anyway, a carbed one would merely need a couple of restrictor washers dropped into the carburettor rubbers... and carbs re-fitted, and if you cant DIY that... dont bother buying an old bike, let alone a 'classic' The 'expensive' FI kit's I believe are about £150 or so, and you get a cirtificate that has absolutely no legal standing what so ever; but if you get a dealer to fit the kit they can stamp the cert and make an insurance bod or plod happy... or maybe a bit less miserable.

Efi bikes.. I dont know; likely that Ducati offer 'restricted' ECU's for them, you might be able to get new or off e-bay, or there may be a throttle-body washer kit similar for carbs available.

LEGALLY you are merely required to ensure that motorcycle you ride is within your licence entitlement; how you do that is entirely up to you. You do not have to have ANY proof what so ever that the bike is restricted to ride it or if stopped by plod.... BUT if the manufacturers declared specs say the bike makes more power than you are allowed, you are guilty until proven innocent and will have to justify how you ensured bike is within licence entitlement.

Such comments as "Well its twelve years old and old engines loose a bit of power, dont they, through wear and tear" is probably NOT going to cut it.

Having a reciept for a restrictor kit, even a stamped FI cert, to suggest you at least bought a restrictor kit 'believed' to bring bike within limits shows you have done something, but doesn't prove kit was actually fitted, or hasn't subsequently been removed.. it would take physical inspection and or testing of the bike, to actually deturmine if its restricted or not.

So, practically; the first 'authority' of concern is your insurance co. You enter a contract with them, and they may demand an approved (by them) restrictor kit be fitted as part of that contract; they could ask for a reciept from a mechanics to show a restrictor has been fitted or a dyno print, or pretty much anything really... they could ask for photo-copies of both your parents birth cirtificates and a sworn statement from a practicing Rhabi that the sky is blue if they want to make that a contractual requirement! But it's NOT a requirement of 'law'. Thing is, they may ask for nothing, they could ask for something, and that something might not be what you got.

So you choose what you are going to do; then offer that to your ins co; if they accept it great, if not find ins-co who will accept it.

After that; only be an issue if you get pulled by plod; and again, they can ask for whatever the heck they like... they may not ask for bog all; BUT, you are not required to even carry your driving licence in the UK, you don't have to show them fuck all at the side of the road, if stopped.

They can demand whatever they like, and they can threaten to impound the bike as uninsured; BUT if you have insurance... they would be on a sticky wicket without proof that its unrestricted to do so; and up to THEM to prove thier suspicion, not for you to prove them wrong. all they can do is give you a producer for driving licence, MOT and insurance cert. And possibly to make apointment at your convenience for a vehicle inspection by thier representative.

So, its a question of avoiding dropping yourself in it, when talking to them; they can talk you into incriminating yourself very easily; so try and keep your mouth shut as much as you can, and dont get thier backs up with 'smart' answers.

Remember its up to you to ensure bike is restricted; so tell them whatever sensible strategy that is; retrictor kit, ECU, throttle stop; and if they ask for a certificate you dont have, be straight, tell them its not required, you dont have one. And having told them, that the bike is restricted, and supported that with the 'how', then they can believe what they like, up to them to prove you a liar from that point, not for you to prove them wrong; And unless you GIVE them reason to believe you aren't telling the truth or that your reasons to suggest the bike is restricted isn't 'reasonable, all they can do is default to a producer and vehicle inspection appointment.

And having a bit of paper of some sort, can do a lot to shut them up and make them go away.

But not riding like a tit in the first place, can do an awful lot more to stop them tugging you in the first place!

After that; only other place it may become an issue, is back with ins co's, if you have had an accident, and some-one is looking to wheedle out of paying.

It is a concern; but ultimately shouln't be a huge one; there's lots of restricted licence holders out there who have never even been challenged for proof of restriction, and I'm sure an awful lot of them are riding bikes they dont actually hold entitlement to ride!

If you have taken 'reasonable' precautions to ensure bike is within licence entitlement, as required by the Road Traffic Act, THAT ought to be enough, and you should have good enough answers for any-one who takes an interest.

And bottom line, a £150 FI International kit may be a rip off; but, it's a 'reasonable precaution' that would take an awful lot of arguing against, and STILL come down to inspection and test if any-one wanted to seriously challenge it. Its not a HUGE saving to do nothing or forge a Paddy-Cert on your PC; while backing that up buying stuff fitting stuff or getting bike pre-emptively tested is only going to erode that small saving; so could be a 'convenience' worth its cost.

So, its not a HUGE worry, its just money and how much risk you want to run, and again, getting a bit clued up.

FWIW, Snowie, my O/H has about five months of 33bhp restrict left to run; she's just bought a Guzzi 750, its not restricted.. well, the engine isn't... has zero RWBHP at the moment as the gearbox is in bits scattered around my living room! But, she has it insured and was never even asked for proof of restriction. She's also named rider on my 750 policy, again, bikes not restricted, I was never asked for any proof of restriction for her.

Unlikely she will ride either until her restriction lapses; but if this gearbox goes back together, it could be on the road before she has full entitlement for it... insurance has been dealt with, she has some... so our 'restriction' strategy, if she wants to ride it before her restriction lapses is to fit a throttle limiter.... I could DIY that with a few penny washers in the carb slides to limit how far the throttle may be opened, and make a fair guess of how much I would need to stop it opening to get it under 33bhp....

I would have absolutely no way to prove that made the bike A2 compliment, nor paper work to support it, BUT its a 'reasonable precaution' and could answer plod at side of the road. Though they could challenge it and still demand testing, as suggestion might not be 'convincing' enough in their opinion.

So, I have mate at the end of the road who is registered bike mechanic... he's in the yellow pages and like everything... "Here Nick, stick these washers on Snowies carb slide tops for me, and print me off a receipt to say you have fitted a restrictor kit!"

Same unwarranted 'restriction'... but I got a bit of paper from registered mechanic, that says he fitted it... doesn't say he warranted it to A2 compliance... JUST he fitted a restrictor... and two washers limiting throttle slide travel IS a restrictor....

Back to the coppa at the side of the road; "Yes officer its restricted, Here I have receipt from mechanic that says he restricted it" They may still be of the opinion its unconvincing... but, they have some third party support that the bike was at some point restricted... so bottom line they would STILL have to get the bike tested to find the truth.

And, of course could be that my DIY 'restriction' doesn't restrict it enough to be A2 complient.....

So, having got Nick to give me a bit of paper, I COULD take bike to a Dyno House and find out how much power it made, and pre-emptively test it to be sure it would pass a police inspection. Might take a couple of rund, if it was over, adding more washers, though.

And another bit of paper to wave around to support 'restriction'... and as long as washers left in, IF the bike got tested by any-one.. well, engines rarely gain power by wearing out or bits breaking... AND even if shown to be over limit on another dyno... court could be shown enough paper and physical evidence in a restriction mechanism in place on the bike, to support suggestion that 'reasonable precautions' had been taken to ensure licence entitlement. IF it ever went that far.

And in all probability it never would; in all probability, snowie will never even get pulled by plod while she's still on restricted licence; she hasn't been pulled in four years on her 125 while on L-Plates or off them; little reason to believe she'll get pulled on her 750. And even if she DID, reciept from Nick the Mechanic saying he fitted something resembling a power restrictor, likely to end the matter, at side of road, or at counter when showing her docs.

There's no right or wrong answer to restriction strategy; law rightly in my opinion, merely requires you do 'something' to endure vehicle is within licence entitlement; up to you how stringent you want to be in that assurance; its no different to the stipulation that its your responsibility to ensure that the vehicle is insure, taxed, if required MOT's AND 'in a road-worthy condition'....

Few people will get a pry bar out to check play in their steering, suspension or wheel bearings before they pop to the shops in their car.... which is what a MOT man would do to ensure the vehicle is 'road worthy'

So comes down to what is 'reasonable precaution'.... we are frequently reminded that possessing an MOT isn't reasonable assurance that a vehicle will remain road worthy for the entire validty period of the MOT cert... and its the same thing here. Its YOUR responsibility, and for YOU to judge how much is 'enough' and what a court might deem 'reasonable'. And how much its worth.

You could wing it with nowt; and you might never get challenged.

You could do 'something', that some might deem 'reasonable' that might even genuinely make bike genuinely A2 compliment, and that could give you enough to answer any-one challenging you, without ever having a bit of paper to support it.

You could get some bits of paper that might or might not support your suggestions, that shut up any-one who challenges you.

Or.. you could just buy an over priced pair of washers with a certificate, that insurance co's and plod are familiar with from FI , much more likely to shut them up if challenged.

You just have to have the strategy and the answers before they are asked.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[Teflon-Mike]

[MC]

[Az]

[MC]

Well the instructor on my DAS had a liberal attitude towards speed, on country roads he rode off into the distance & we had to try to keep up, then heading back down the motorway after our tests we stayed the sensible side of a ton but weren't doing 70

Not going to say I exploited the bike to its limits, but I got a pretty good feel for the Bandit, and did a lot of miles. The sorry was purely if you thought I was bad mouthing your bike (I know that can be annoying)

Probably going a bit off topic/thread hijacking but what did you think of the MT-03? I really miss mine Only the clunky gearbox & jerky power delivery would stop me having another, but the handling was amazing. Seeing as it can be ridden without being restricted on an A2 license it's an example of the sort of thing that's worth looking at.
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Yamaha MT-03 '08 (crashed)
Honda XR-125L '04

[Commuter_Tim]