Brake upgrade

[stranger12]

Hi ,

From following which ones do you pick for brake performance ?

Braided lines
Brembo master cylinder
Discs

Looking around people say the beaided lines provide the most improvement followed bu brembo master cylinder.

Do you think it is worth it for road and occasional track riding ?
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SV650 Red
R6 Red

[Wull]

As its not that expensive I've always found the brembo m/c and braided lines to be the best bang for buck with regards to improvement with braking.

On my R6 that I had a few years back I went the full hog and had pfm discs but I'd of been happy enough with just the m/c and lines as the improvement was good enough.
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"Scooters are for men who want to ride motorcycles but prefer to feel the wind on their vaginas"

[RhynoCZ]

I heard, the blue spot brakes were the top notch.
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'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor

[Commuter_Tim]

I hear that it is worth upgrading your brakes, if you want to stop that is.
Stopping is overrated, coming to a rapid stop on a motorbike can be dangerous.
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The above post is most likely nonsensical.

I ride a Bandit 600... badly.

[lihp]

Why do you want to upgrade the brakes?
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covent.gardens: lihp is my most favourite member ever

[Teflon-Mike]

Couple of old addages for you;
KIS-KIS.... Keep it Simple - Keep it STANDARD
Before looking for MORE than 'Standard', make sure you have what you should AS standard.

To-Wit... start by stripping and cleaning and greasing what you got; dumping the old hydraulic oil and adding new, then bleed diligently...

NEXT? New pads.. you have some discretion over grade.

I wouldn't swap out OE discs unless they were past wear limit, damaged or warped; they are usually 'better' than after-market replacements.

Hoses? I like Aeroquip braided lines; but the 'improvement' they offer is much over-rated and exaggerated by usually replacing tired reinforced rubber, full of shitty milky fluid.

Master-Cylinder? On a road-bike? I wouldn't want the 'hassle' of insurance ramifications, either declaring it as a 'mod' to a safety critical system, or not declaring it... without the brain bending of doing the maths to work out the right cylinder sizing for the caliper(s), to be sure it would actually work and give some advantage..
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[mentalboy]

[pdg]

[talkToTheHat]

Standard brakes on a sv650 are perfectly capable of breaking traction at the front or lifting the rear wheel.

Braided lines will give you a more direct and firmer feel than standard lines, and if your standard lines are worn out stretchy things then braking force transmitted may be significantly improved. As a side effect you will have fresh brake fluid. Flush your system evey 2 years or as recommended in your service manual.

A change of master cylinder will change what I am going to describe badly as the gear ratio of your brakes, a narrower diameter master will have more travel for a given movement of the caliper and force at the lever will be proportionally amplified. The inverse is also true. Beware of increasing lever travel to the point where you don't have enough room for fingers, or decreasing the ratio to the point where you cannot brake hard enough. Here be dragons. As mentioned previously, your insurers will hate this.

Pick road pads for feel, experiment with diferent brands and be aware of what happens in the wet. If for some reason you have organic pads in there, bin them. Consider using different pads for dry track days than you would on the road, as on the track break fade is an issue but you can use pads that don't work well without a little heat in them, whereas on the road instant cold performance is required and you are unlikely to be putting as much heat into the brakes by repeated hard braking.

Note that as well as the friction and temperature performance of a brake compound, the feel comes from the compressibility.

Cheapest mod is to keep your brakes bled, pistons clean and free-moving and your friction surfaces clean. Can be surprising, I finally got round to new brembo front pads in the Autumn and was most dissapointred as I was bedding them in only to spray a little cleaner on the front disk and then nearly headbutt the bars the next time I applied the brakes. I think this was about getting rid of material from the old ferodo organics that had transferred, as the brembos have been alright since.

Be careful not to wash silicone grease or copper grease from the calliper onto the friction surfaces when using brake cleaner.
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Bandit. does. everything.

[stranger12]

sorry for the confusion , this is for the r6 . As I said, I am happy with the brakes but came to mind, If I can improve them then it is a worth while investment.

So far,

I have cleaned the caliper and changed all seals just few month ago
EBC sintered pad in front
changed the brake fluid

based on some advice and my research ,

braided lines provide the most performance gain so I will be looking at getting a set . what brand do you recommend ? How do I know my rubber lines are expanding , by checking them as I am squeezing the brakes?


now re master cylinder, some peopleswear by them saying how much improvement it provided. Are we saying it doesn't and it changed the firmness of the brake by using longer or shorter stroke pistons ?

Would you invest in brembo mc ?


re discs, I thought the wavy ones were the latest but then people say they are not great as you don't have that much surface as the normal disc. So I then thought, I can upgrade mine from 300mm to 320 which will provide an improvement , will it not ?

assuming mine is 300 mm?


re calipers, I think they will not make any difference unless I get something with bigger pistons or more pistons
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SV650 Red
R6 Red

[stranger12]

on a separate note, do you wipe the brake cleaner from disc after it is applied ?
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SV650 Red
R6 Red

[temeluchus]

[stranger12]

bought a set of race hel braided lines from helmobile for £69 which is usually £90. I used the code "forum"

that is for anyone wanting to buy braided lines and save

re spray , so it is ok to spray and start riding ?
how often would you do it ?

I know the brakes are great but just want to improve them if I can
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SV650 Red
R6 Red

[Fisty]

[stranger12]

I will try brembo next as mine is currently ebc sintered

Re master cylinder, what is 19x20 or 18x..?
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SV650 Red
R6 Red

[Taught2BCauti...]

I would always fit stainless braided brake hoses if nothing else. Keep the rest of the components in good order and you will be fine.
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Honda Varadero XL125(V8)
www.TheFutureIsHere.eu

[mentalboy]

[Kickstart]

[talkToTheHat]

With brake cleaner, spray and ride is fine. Wipe with something very clean if really dirty or not immediately moving, I use a fresh blue disposable shop towel if i need to (like kitchen paper for bikes, find in automotve shops or b&q)

Thanks Keith, I'd missed the lever ratio from the brake lever behaviour. Some voodoo required in measuring where the braking force is applied, don't measures from end of lever to pivot. 2 finger beakers should probably measure from the point between where index and middle fingers touch the lever, 4 finger brakers from under the middle finger. Brake levers aren't straight the axis of the master cylinder is often different to axis of squeeze, so just treat each force and distance as a torque about the pivot pin and the maths will all make sense again. Compounding lever and hydraulic ratios just like gear ratios.

Lever ratio is effective lever lenght / pivot distance

Hydraulic ratio is slave piston surface area / master cylinder surface area

but throw away pi, it cancels out, just add up the squares of each slave piston diameter and divide by the square of the master cylinder bore.

The numbers with a master cylinder are the bore diameter and pivot distance. The RCS system has two position can adjustable pivot distance.

If you increase disk diameter you will need to relocate the callipers, whether this is a spacer or a different mount I do not know, but it is not just the disks. Decreases the lever ratio between road and caliper, disks will lose heat faster and last longer, but increased rotating unspring mass may slow your steering and alter suspension behaviour. You'd better know what you're doing here.

Seriously, braided brake lines before you mess with master cylinders, otherwise your investment will be a waste. Improved feel, not particularly expensive.

For clarity's sake I'm riding an old bike that is not sports oriented. My front brake pad choice was about feel and response in the wet, and I dont think the particular pads fitted are much different to ebc organics on a dry day. 'Performance' pads just don't exist for my caliper. Still stops faster than I am prepared to routinely ride on the road.

If you're happy with how the bike stops but still want better, I understand that, have been there as a teen with karts and R/C. Try to reconcile this conflict before the money runs out. I think you'd get the most out of upgrades that improve feel over pure performance as you probably won't get everyhting your bike has to give unless you are racing at a high level.

I recall an issue of Ride featured an article on dedicated braking instruction days, perhaps such a short course might be of use and help you get your moneys worth out of the brakes?
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Bandit. does. everything.

[Commuter_Tim]

OP did have an off recently and was partially mocked in his thread asking for assistance...
Is it possible he is clutching at straws down the avenue of brake upgrades to boost his confidence?
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The above post is most likely nonsensical.

I ride a Bandit 600... badly.

[mentalboy]

[talkToTheHat]

Having written off a 125 locking up after a goon pulled out on me and had two minor drops from being hamfisted on wet leaves and slimy post-flood roads I feel OP's pain. But sharper track focussed brakes are as said above likely to be counter productive.

Modifications for better feel mean more control. Worth doing.

Modifications for more 'bite' are likely to bite a hamfisted or inexperienced rider. Worst are brakes that don't do anything and then suddenly grab. The organics that were on mine when I got her were like that particularly in the wet, nothing then loads. I've driven a few track cars that were like that too, fortunately with fucking brutal abs. Carbon on Carbon race brakes are probably the worst for this.

Best advice though is ensure fitted hardware is connected by good lines and fluid with no air bubbles, then learn to use said hardware, with an instructor if nessarcary. Most bikes have significantly better brakes than riders.
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Bandit. does. everything.

[stranger12]

thanks, not really it is not too boost my confidence , just came to mind and wanted to upgrade it if i can .

I will leave the mc out as , as far as I understood from the posts , it is purely to change the feeling of how the bike brakes but no improvement, right?

I have ordered a hel braided lines and also castrol dot4.
I used to get brake fades in street on days that I was pushing it very hard so am narrowing this down to my poor dot 4 as brake pads are ebc sintered so all ok there.

with brake fade, is it the fluid that can cause it or the pads will also do ?

does disc also play a role ?

I should say , I changed the fluid about 3 month ago with pagid dot4 which has been setting in my garage for over 4 years in a 4 liter gallon but the lid was closed so should have not absorbed water or moisture
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SV650 Red
R6 Red

[evoboy]

Change the pads.

EBC Sintered are naff. SBS, Carbon Lorraine, Brembo, Bendix, DP, all give much better initial bite which will feel like you have upgraded.
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Suzuki GT250 x7------- Fazer 600------CB250RS------Aprilia Rally 70----- Bandit 600

APT Motorcycles

[Matt B]