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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 11:26 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Weightlifting... Reply with quote

I've been 'stronglifting' for a few months now. As you'd expect I want to judge my progress, but it turns out that everyone on the internet is a super athlete who can benchpress my Monster with out even breaking a sweat.

I've finally come across https://www.exrx.net/Testing/WeightLifting/StrengthStandards.html which seems a reasonable guide with a lot less bullshit. The numbers match my reality, especially considering I started the program cold (ie. 0 fitness after years in an office job).

As it's the auntie section I guess I need some help too - overhead press is killing me... I'm hitting a wall at 42.5kg. With the barbell row I hit trouble and managed to breakthrough by doing some actual rowing (well in a rowing machine anyway). But, what cardio type or highly repetitive exercises could help with a press?
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Benjums
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PostPosted: 11:49 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doing weight lifting you are always going to hit a level at some point. When I was in the gym hitting the weights and hit a level I would always drop back a few kg and do more reps. So for argument sake your struggling at 43 kg, drop it down to 25 or 30kg and instead of 10 reps at 43 try increasing it to 20 reps, or go lighter and do as many reps as you physically can. I used to do this for a couple of weeks then build up the weights again, you usually find that you will go past your weight then. This worked for me hopefully will work for you.
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G
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PostPosted: 14:13 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Re: Weightlifting... Reply with quote

This is another good site, as it works it out for you: https://www.strstd.com/ .
Of course it's all indivdual etc; I was surprised where I came on there when I was making an effort (have had to give it a rest for injured stuff to recover.)

I wouldn't have thought most cardio stuff would help too much.

Are you doing strong lifts as in the program? I've done starting strength, which is similar.

Have you done 'resets' where you reduce the weight and build back up?
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 14:57 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Re: Weightlifting... Reply with quote

Benjums wrote:
Doing weight lifting you are always going to hit a level at some point. When I was in the gym hitting the weights and hit a level I would always drop back a few kg and do more reps. So for argument sake your struggling at 43 kg, drop it down to 25 or 30kg and instead of 10 reps at 43 try increasing it to 20 reps, or go lighter and do as many reps as you physically can. I used to do this for a couple of weeks then build up the weights again, you usually find that you will go past your weight then. This worked for me hopefully will work for you.


The program I'm on does de-loading, but not upping the reps past 5x5 I'm going to continue while I'm getting results in the other lifts. It's accessory exercises I'm really after.

G wrote:
This is another good site, as it works it out for you: https://www.strstd.com/ .
Of course it's all indivdual etc; I was surprised where I came on there when I was making an effort (have had to give it a rest for injured stuff to recover.)

I wouldn't have thought most cardio stuff would help too much.

Are you doing strong lifts as in the program? I've done starting strength, which is similar.

Have you done 'resets' where you reduce the weight and build back up?


Yes stronglifts 5x5, I quite like the program itself and am still progressing in general on it. The rowing really helped my barbell rows so I'm sure there's some benefit that can be found from exercises that are not directly strength related. I'm fairly convinced that cardio type accessory exercises are the way forward at my current level.

I've done two small resets - after Christmas and after a long business trip. But the other lifts are still increasing so a full program reset or switch is not yet.

The strstd is a good site, based on the same data which all seems to be from an old book, there's no modern update as far as I can tell:
https://oi53.tinypic.com/x0ph54.jpg
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ Is that table in Kg or lbs?

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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found when I hit a wall that mixing things up a lot to "confuse" the muscles helped.

So when I couldn't go heavier on my 3-set 8-rep bench press, I'd go a fair bit lighter and do a 3-set 20-rep, but still heavy enough that the last couple of reps were only just possible.
I'd also go a fair bit heavier too, such as a 5-set 3-rep. I'd maybe do each set somewhere between 2-3 times a fortnight.

A few weeks of that and then I'd try a heavier weight on my normal 3x8 sets.



Remember to give your body time to repair itself. Can take 24 hours after heavy weight exercise for the muscles to stop getting damaged, and another 72 hours for the repair process to take full effect. So only doing each muscle group once every 4-5 days allows that part of your body to recover properly.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 16:26 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Iglesias wrote:
I imagine lb's, because 165kg, is like, well, massive Laughing


Yeah, the link in my first post is kgs, but appears to just be a conversion of this old publish thing in lbs.

And that highlighting isn't mine - I'm in between the next two groups.
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Last edited by daemonoid on 16:34 - 10 Jan 2015; edited 1 time in total
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 16:32 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Llama-Farmer wrote:
Remember to give your body time to repair itself. Can take 24 hours after heavy weight exercise for the muscles to stop getting damaged, and another 72 hours for the repair process to take full effect. So only doing each muscle group once every 4-5 days allows that part of your body to recover properly.


Source?

I only ask because the whole world of lifting seems to be full of half truths and repeated wisdom.

It would be great if there were some huge data store and cross reference of training vs results, but there's nothing.
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bEN_
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PostPosted: 17:25 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to take everything i read about lifting in general, nutrition etc with a pinch of salt, it's different for everybody.

But as i type this, i've been a plonker and didn't do any proper warm up so i'm sat here with an ice pack on the top of my back as it feels like i've pulled something, had to drop the weights straight away Laughing
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Eddie Hitler
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am advanced on most lifts. Trick is variety in your training, don't go in and do the same old routine for 6 months.
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GhostRider
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PostPosted: 18:28 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Went back at looked at the link in first post, seems about right, at my peak I was just under the advanced category for most exercises and I would agree with the benchmarks for the previous categories also as a roundabout figure.

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G
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PostPosted: 18:32 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got to Advanced or close in most lifts by keeping the same routine for six months Wink.

But yes, if repeated stalling, I'd certainly consider mixing it up a bit, throwing in some 'accessory' lifts etc.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 19:48 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
I got to Advanced or close in most lifts by keeping the same routine for six months ;).

But yes, if repeated stalling, I'd certainly consider mixing it up a bit, throwing in some 'accessory' lifts etc.


Advanced in most lifts? From what start point? Surely not desk job->advanced in 6 months?

Eddie Hitler wrote:
Am advanced on most lifts. Trick is variety in your training, don't go in and do the same old routine for 6 months.


I've heard the exact opposite advice. Why do you say that's the trick? And what do you have to back that advice up?

Not being confrontational, it's just there's so much advice around and none of it is consistent.

GhostRider wrote:
Went back at looked at the link in first post, seems about right, at my peak I was just under the advanced category for most exercises and I would agree with the benchmarks for the previous categories also as a roundabout figure.

GhostRider


I've had a bit of a better look and actually, doesn't look like my press is all that bad, actually I probably just need to concentrate on the other lifts and that will come. I just hit the time when I have trouble in a shorter time because it is a difficult lift.
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G
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PostPosted: 19:56 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Probably 9 months lifting, but 6 months on the routine I started at the start of 2014.
I've always had 'above average' strength I'd say and had done starting strength for six months or so before, but with a six month gap. About half of the six months was spent losing weight too, but of course that helps the stats.

At some point a bit before that I spent a good bit of time moving a lot of heavy car stuff up long flights of stairs (ie gearboxes etc).

Have dabbled with gym stuff on and off over the last few years too, though only recently making a proper effort to do 'good science' choice of exercises etc.
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Eddie Hitler
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:


Eddie Hitler wrote:
Am advanced on most lifts. Trick is variety in your training, don't go in and do the same old routine for 6 months.


I've heard the exact opposite advice. Why do you say that's the trick? And what do you have to back that advice up?

Not being confrontational, it's just there's so much advice around and none of it is consistent.



My muscles and amount I can lift.

Everyones different. When I say mix things up, I don't mean a different excersise every week. Some weeks I'll concentrate on my deadlift, others my squat, etc. At the moment I'm working on my cheat shrugs (because they're fun and really mess up my traps). No particular reason. Confusing my body works for me.

You really need to work out your own rhythm, recovery time, etc - something you can't get advice from others for.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Probably 9 months lifting, but 6 months on the routine I started at the start of 2014.
I've always had 'above average' strength I'd say and had done starting strength for six months or so before, but with a six month gap. About half of the six months was spent losing weight too, but of course that helps the stats.

At some point a bit before that I spent a good bit of time moving a lot of heavy car stuff up long flights of stairs (ie gearboxes etc).

Have dabbled with gym stuff on and off over the last few years too, though only recently making a proper effort to do 'good science' choice of exercises etc.


Bit of a difference there Smile 6 months has suddenly turned into 2 years plus a decent starting point.

I'm pretty sure that if I'd started this just when I stopped working on a farm I'd not be having these same troubles.

Still, getting advanced "or thereabouts" is still quite impressive.
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G
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PostPosted: 20:57 - 10 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

The six months point was in reply to Eddie Hitler's point about not staying on the same routine for 6 months Smile.

For me, I was surprised 'advanced' isn't THAT hard to get to - does give a nice ego boost however Razz.

As it goes, when I was moving all the car parts, I was on pretty restricted calories and not eating enough protein - it was this that got me getting all geeky on exercise/health stuff as I realised I could probably be doing it better.
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Eddie Hitler
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PostPosted: 01:18 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
The six months point was in reply to Eddie Hitler's point about not staying on the same routine for 6 months Smile.


6 months is a long time to stay on one training regime with no variety. If I did that I wouldn't make any strength gains at all, my body would just plateau. Longest time I spent on a single training routine was 8 weeks when I first began.
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Llama-Farmer
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PostPosted: 03:12 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
Llama-Farmer wrote:
Remember to give your body time to repair itself. Can take 24 hours after heavy weight exercise for the muscles to stop getting damaged, and another 72 hours for the repair process to take full effect. So only doing each muscle group once every 4-5 days allows that part of your body to recover properly.


Source?

I only ask because the whole world of lifting seems to be full of half truths and repeated wisdom.

It would be great if there were some huge data store and cross reference of training vs results, but there's nothing.


Anatomy, physiology and sports science subjects at school, college and uni.
Confirmed by a med student though who is currently on an intercalated course at Loughborough doing a sports medicine year.
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monkeybiker
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do a bit of weightlifting and the thing you need to realize is there are lots of different routines that work.

Someone training a certain way and getting good results does not mean it's the best way it just means it's a method that works.
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

monkeybiker wrote:
I do a bit of weightlifting and the thing you need to realize is there are lots of different routines that work.

Someone training a certain way and getting good results does not mean it's the best way it just means it's a method that works.


I think that's rather obvious... Lots of programs have to work, otherwise everyone would be doing exactly the same one.

Same with different programs working better for different people, we have physical and mental differences that affect the effectiveness... Simple stuff like the ratios of fast/slow twitch muscle which have genetic component vastly affect performance at various activities. Or the fact I enjoy the routine of strong lifts 5x5 for months on end whereas Eddie gets bored.

Then there's the current state of your body - G would've been relatively fit (well relative to a desk jockey) and somewhat conditioned to lifting. I on the other hand am coming from nothing, so I will likely benefit from fitness exercises to improve my strength, whereas someone further along may find fitness/cardio reduces their strength.

Llama-Farmer wrote:
Anatomy, physiology and sports science subjects at school, college and uni.
Confirmed by a med student though who is currently on an intercalated course at Loughborough doing a sports medicine year.


Excellent... But until you give me the source I'm it's still repeated wisdom to me - there must be decent articles out there confirming it if you've both had it on your courses?




I'm still looking for a more active accessory exercises that help with overhead press - anything that targets the lower back or shoulders should be good. I suppose I could start cartwheeling on the treadmills...
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Eddie Hitler
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PostPosted: 12:34 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

daemonoid wrote:
I'm still looking for a more active accessory exercises that help with overhead press - anything that targets the lower back or shoulders should be good. I suppose I could start cartwheeling on the treadmills...


I'll ask my best mate whos a personal trainer, hes also studying at uni regarding all the nutritional side of stuff. Hes actually the person who got me into fitness years ago. I should be seeing him on tuesday before I set off.

From my own opinion maybe try using single dumbells in an overpress style fashion with your wrist in a side position. Like this. I'm not at all an expert, my mate is but he has suggested this excersise to me in the past. If I was in your position I would sack off overhead pressing for a few weeks and concentrate on another excersise. I injured my rotator cuff pushing myself too far doing my push press a few months ago, not nice.

https://i.imgur.com/JupMTTQ.jpg
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daemonoid
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PostPosted: 12:50 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eddie Hitler wrote:
daemonoid wrote:
I'm still looking for a more active accessory exercises that help with overhead press - anything that targets the lower back or shoulders should be good. I suppose I could start cartwheeling on the treadmills...


I'll ask my best mate whos a personal trainer, hes also studying at uni regarding all the nutritional side of stuff. Hes actually the person who got me into fitness years ago. I should be seeing him on tuesday before I set off.

From my own opinion maybe try using single dumbells in an overpress style fashion with your wrist in a side position. Like this. I'm not at all an expert, my mate is but he has suggested this excersise to me in the past. If I was in your position I would sack off overhead pressing for a few weeks and concentrate on another excersise. I injured my rotator cuff pushing myself too far doing my push press a few months ago, not nice.

https://i.imgur.com/JupMTTQ.jpg


Thanks.

I don't think I'm in much danger of injury though... 42.5 doesn't feel heavy, I just seem to lose all strength on some of the later sets. Friday I managed 5,5,1,5,5 nothing feels tight, I'm not pushing to what feels like the extremes of strength. I just completely lose it, which is why I feel a bit of stamina work would help, as it did with the barbell rows.

Next attempt will be Tuesday and hopefully after that I won't have to deload. It's especially odd as 40kg seems quite light and as though there's a lot left in the tank.
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G
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 11 Jan 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some sauce.

Which suggests 36 hours is the figure - so 48 hours between sessions seems reasonable.

Couldn't find the actual study, I'm afraid.

Quote:
Recently, researchers at McMaster University in Hamilton, Ontario and the Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis made a head start on reckoning recovery times. Their subjects, six healthy young men who regularly engaged in weight training, carried out four sets each of biceps, 'concentration,' and 'preacher' curls (12 sets in all), with three to four minutes of rest between sets. Resistance (weight) was set at 80 per cent of maximum (80 per cent of the heaviest weight which could be lifted successfully one time), and each set consisted of as many reps as a subject could handle.

The unique aspect of the research was that each subject carried out the curls with only one arm; the other arm rested. The scientists could then use an isotope tracer to determine protein uptake in the exercised arm and compare it with routine protein synthesis in the arm which had not exercised.

Combining this research with a similar, past effort, the scientists determined that muscle protein synthetic rate increases by about 50 per cent four hours after a workout. This is evidence that muscles are repairing damage accrued from the workout - and also building new 'stuff' to make themselves stronger and more fatigue-resistant.

This 'repair and renew' process seems to peak about 24 hours after a workout, when muscle protein synthetic rate was up by a hefty 109 per cent in the McMaster-Washington research. However, about 36 hours after a workout, the whole process is pretty much over, and muscles are back to routine housekeeping.

It's important to point out that this study was done with experienced weight trainees; novice lifters might have required a longer recovery process. It's also important to note that the research was conducted with strength rather than endurance athletes. The recovery process might proceed with a different time frame following a more endurance-type workout. Also, there is variation between athletes. Some individuals might be all done recovering after just 30 hours or so, while others could take 40 to 48 hours.
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