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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 09:16 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: You are not a name, you're a number! Reply with quote
Seems terribly socialist...
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/26/ucas-name-blind-university-applications-racial-bias

But, I wonder; could it also end up effectively cancel out 'positive discrimination' too?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Re: You are not a name, you're a number! Reply with quote
From where I'm sitting the current issue is about UK yoofs getting access to STEM courses and the consequent jobs, because folk with high-scrabble-score names are bagging most of the places:

This is because:

1) Zybzlysky will pay pay fat dollah to get on the course, and then he'll work hard at it, and we will gladly snap him up.

and

2) He's not daft enough to pay fat dollah to slack his way though a degree in Gender Politics and the History of Hairdressing, unlike the local entitled end products of the welfare state.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Seems like a good thing to me.

I like the idea of meritocracy. Subconscious bias will exist until the day applications of all kinds are based purely on skills, experience etc.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:49 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
I like the idea of meritocracy.

Even if white kids from from well educated, comfortably well off families have the leisure time, encouragement and assistance to get good results at school, and therefore tend to keep getting prestigious university places and cushy jobs?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
I like the idea of meritocracy.

Even if white kids from from well educated, comfortably well off families have the leisure time, encouragement and assistance to get good results at school, and therefore tend to keep getting prestigious university places and cushy jobs?


I don't really know what you mean. 'Wealth privilege' is an issue either way (and not just white kids any more) and isn't really what's being considered here. This blind application procedure just gets around the fact that some admissions offices will give Rupert Archibald Tarquin Windsor priority over Chardonnay Daggart or Mohammed Al Akbar Hussein because of subconscious prejudices that don't consider personal merit at all.

As G hinted at, it certainly goes some way towards avoiding negative (and positive) discrimination. Seems an all-round win to me!

Regarding rich people having easier access to opportunity because of the overall ease of their path in life - there are many solutions but they're all extremely socialistic to say the least..!
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 18:38 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Perhaps then, the institution at which the qualification was gained should also be deleted. You know, so they don't see that Applicant X achieved all 6 of their A levels at Eton? This won't solve the perceived "problem", it'll just alter it, I think.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
snoosnoo wrote:
Perhaps then, the institution at which the qualification was gained should also be deleted. You know, so they don't see that Applicant X achieved all 6 of their A levels at Eton? This won't solve the perceived "problem", it'll just alter it, I think.


Fair point really.

Then it gets into the fairly murky realm of how we judge the quality of an academic institution, and whether it's fair to assume someone is 'better' just because they were educated there.

It's also a reasonable argument for the abolition of all private schools, all religious schools, etc. It really isn't fair that utter morons can go through 'better' educational institutions (just because their parents paid for it, or they're part of some religious sect) and therefore be arbitrarily perceived as a better candidate.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Re: You are not a name, you're a number! Reply with quote
G wrote:
But, I wonder; could it also end up effectively cancel out 'positive discrimination' too?


Except positive discrimination is illegal. The quota systems various parts of the government used were abolished in the Equality act 2010.

The only exemptions are politics and Northern Ireland.

You're also mistaken if positive discrimination helps non white people Niederle et al (2013) Wise (1998). Studies on affirmative action in the US proved that affirmative action benefited WHITE PEOPLE especially women disproportionately compared to non whites (Ibid 2013)

Colour blind applications ALSO disproportionately benefits white people (Ezorsky, 1991).

The UK employment market ALREADY stacks the deck against non white people (https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover) and you want EVEN more systematic advantages?

(https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/18/ethnic-minority-students-less-likely-to-win-university-places)



Citations

Ezorsky, G. (1991). Racism and justice: The case for affirmative action. Cornell University Press.

Niederle, M., Segal, C., & Vesterlund, L. (2013). How costly is diversity? Affirmative action in light of gender differences in competitiveness. Management Science, 59(1), 1-16.

Wise, T. (1998). Is sisterhood conditional? White women and the rollback of affirmative action. NWSA journal, 1-26.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 18:54 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:

It's also a reasonable argument for the abolition of all private schools, all religious schools, etc. It really isn't fair that utter morons can go through 'better' educational institutions (just because their parents paid for it, or they're part of some religious sect) and therefore be arbitrarily perceived as a better candidate.


I disagree with that, why shouldn't you be able to pay for a better standard of education?

If the govt mandates that everyone must be taught to a minimum of X, there is no-problem with exceeding that specification. At it sets a precedent of "govt knows best" (as if we are not far enough down that path already....).

If there is a voluntary exchange between educators and parents, and the kids are being taught to a decent standard what is the problem.

Do you not find it ironic that in the protest thread you complain about suppression of dissent yet here you are in favour of a policy that would concentrate power further in the hands of the state?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:15 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
I don't really know what you mean.

That I'm suspicious of what you mean by "meritocracy".

If it means (for university entrance) looking only at school exam results then "wealth privilege" will ensure that white middle class yoofs continue to live in the areas with schools that attract the best teachers, will be supported, encouraged and privately tutored at home, and will tend to get the best results.

Are you OK with that?

Or did you have some other merits in mind?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:31 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:


I disagree with that, why shouldn't you be able to pay for a better standard of education?

If the govt mandates that everyone must be taught to a minimum of X, there is no-problem with exceeding that specification. At it sets a precedent of "govt knows best" (as if we are not far enough down that path already....).

If there is a voluntary exchange between educators and parents, and the kids are being taught to a decent standard what is the problem.

Do you not find it ironic that in the protest thread you complain about suppression of dissent yet here you are in favour of a policy that would concentrate power further in the hands of the state?


Nope, not ironic! I'm just being an (over)idealist. State suppression is bad but state education is good (in an ideal world). And abolishing private education is hardly suppressive. If it was abolished and half the country was in uproar about it, and the government ignored the uproar, then it might be suppression.

It's of course natural and anyone's right to pursue better education if they can afford it, but it's fairly obvious that it leads to a greater level of divide between those who can and can't pay for it. It's no coincidence the majority of global leaders came from wealthy upbringings. And as we've seen time and time again, world leaders are mere mortals who still make the same mistakes any other human might make. So why do the wealthy lot deserve to pay their way up the ladder like that?

Also it makes you wonder - is state education actually worse than private education? Or is private education only perceived as better because, as Rogerborg hinted at, those in private education are usually those who have more time and opportunity to pursue such things.

And are you paying for better education, or just paying for a nicer environment for your kids to learn/grow up in? Overall I don't see any reason why private education would make someone more clever or capable, it simply let's them develop a different social stance which takes them forward much easier in life. Nothing to do with intelligence or merit, generally, in my opinion.

So in my ideal world I'd say state education is easily on par with private education. The only difference is the sort of ethos you get in public and private schools. State schools more often have kids from bad backgrounds or poorer neighbourhoods, and that's the only reason I can see people getting a worse education - not the quality of teaching necessarily, it's just the wider culture that those kids grow up around, meaning they don't have a drive to learn. I actually think the solution lies in making school a much more serious thing, like the 'good old days' with scary teachers, canes etc. I'm a firm believer in fairly strict state-run institutions for getting the population up to standard without any of this bullshit 'oh your grades are quite low but we all love you anyway'. And no this isn't me supporting some form of state suppression. I'd call it state regulation maybe - abolishing private education is essentially a preventative measure to ensure equal opportunity regardless of wealth. Consider the morons on TOWIE or Geordie Shore. With their reality TV star earnings, if they so wished they could pay themselves into Eton or some super-elite high cost adult education institution and gain an instant head start in a new career, all because 'money'. Is that fair?

TL;DR - you aren't paying for a better standard of education. You're paying to rub shoulders with the future elite. Another case of money+money=money. Not really fair for the real bright sparks who simply can't afford it. Best abolished, really.

Last edited by Lord Percy on 19:34 - 10 Nov 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:33 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
I don't really know what you mean.

That I'm suspicious of what you mean by "meritocracy".

If it means (for university entrance) looking only at school exam results then "wealth privilege" will ensure that white middle class yoofs continue to live in the areas with schools that attract the best teachers, will be supported, encouraged and privately tutored at home, and will tend to get the best results.

Are you OK with that?

Or did you have some other merits in mind?


As I've explained in other posts, it's not necessarily the best thing but is inevitable unless some fairly drastic socialist measures are put in place. At best, private education could be abolished.

At least removing the names of applicants will remove a fair chunk of social prejudices..
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:41 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:


At least removing the names of applicants will remove a fair chunk of social prejudices..


It won't as I've posted up the study above removing names of applicants actually disadvantages the groups you're trying to help even more.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 19:48 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:


At least removing the names of applicants will remove a fair chunk of social prejudices..


It won't as I've posted up the study above removing names of applicants actually disadvantages the groups you're trying to help even more.


So essentially you're saying blind applications which don't show any hint of race, social background etc still benefit white people? How?

The only explanation I can see is that the studies acted as proof to show that white people still overall have a higher standard of living and therefore a higher proportion of access to opportunity for education, career etc.

But as far as applications are concerned, I don't understand how a person of any race or nationality can have any handicap if all that personal information isn't there in the first place.
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instigator.
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PostPosted: 19:58 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
But as far as applications are concerned, I don't understand how a person of any race or nationality can have any handicap if all that personal information isn't there in the first place.


That's because you're white & priviledged. Don't you gerrit? Rolling Eyes
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
So essentially you're saying blind applications which don't show any hint of race, social background etc still benefit white people? How?


I'm not the author of those studies.

Because all it does is transfer one form of filtering to another.

Tell you a story about an acquaintance. She worked in recruitment. She was purely about ability and work experience. She found many great candidates who happened to be non white.

She sent these candidates and even though they were UK born with great education and work experience she kept getting back that the candidate was unsuitable due to communication difficulties. Eventually she was told not to send any non white candidates.

In fact we had this very thing happen on here.

There is this autistic person on here. He's got a sig saying I'm autistic this means I'm smarter than you. He pretty much he works for a company that absolutely refuses to hire Chinese even Chinese sounding names. It got to the stage whereby they contacted the recruitment company not to send them any Chinese.

Yet he couldn't get his head around the fact that this was discriminatory and even went as far as to say it wasn't.

I'm sure from your China experience you've probably seen something similar.

Lord Percy wrote:
But as far as applications are concerned, I don't understand how a person of any race or nationality can have any handicap if all that personal information isn't there in the first place.


As above all it does is move the barrier which blocks the person not getting a job to a later stage of the application process.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:

As above all it does is move the barrier which blocks the person not getting a job to a later stage of the application process.


Fair point, although it kind of then goes beyond the scope of this thread, which I thought was primarily about university places, which presumably would work very well in the case where there's no face-to-face part in the selection process.

Sort of interesting actually. In roles like business, marketing etc which probably need some level of interpersonal skills, charisma etc, it must be really hard to find the balance between accepting people based on merit, and refusing people because, "This is the way the world is, your face doesn't fit and there's nothing we can do about it." It's hard to define what 'merit' is when part of the process is selecting a person who will be able to meet and exceed the requirements laid out by twisted public prejudices.

I suppose my idealism is only limited to the areas in life where brains are more important than aesthetics.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:22 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
instigator. wrote:


That's because you're white & priviledged. Don't you gerrit? Rolling Eyes


Privilege has no d

Except you are privileged in the UK and overseas as a white person, denying it is a psychological defence people use Phillips & Lowery(2015).

I can sort of understand this, namely because it undermines your achievements as if they were not completely earned by you.

HOWEVER white privilege does NOT mean you get everything handed to you on a plate as many wrongly assume.

It's just that certain things which add up can cause certain advantages like the CV name thing which is proven to be true:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover

This may be a small thing but a job is a gateway to a better quality of life. Relationships and all the good bits of life we're supposed to have.

Hell even insurance:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=4067798

Where people played around and demonstrated a couple of quid cheaper all things equal. Chinese vs UK people. What can we call that discrepancy? A quid or two here is neither here nor there for me, but there shouldn't be a difference.



Haha you might find this funny but white people in SZ and HK talk about Chinese privilege and how my stuff was handed to me on a plate because I'm Chinese. I still had to work for it...


Citations


Phillips, L. T., & Lowery, B. S. (2015). The hard-knock life? Whites claim hardships in response to racial inequity. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.
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Last edited by Itchy on 20:27 - 10 Nov 2015; edited 1 time in total
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
I suppose my idealism is only limited to the areas in life where brains are more important than aesthetics.


Oh come on you know better than this. I know you know better than this. We crossed swords last year about it.

I'm sure you and the other person got teaching jobs because of your myriad of teaching qualifications, work experience in teaching and numerous publications in peer reviewed journals right? Question
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:28 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Re: You are not a name, you're a number! Reply with quote
Interesting Grauniad links are interesting.

Itchy wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover

Interesting because the linked articles show that this drum has been banged before. It will doubtless be banged again, many times.

Itchy wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/sep/18/ethnic-minority-students-less-likely-to-win-university-places

Grauniad wrote:
even after adjusting for A-level scores

Why "even"? On what other basis would places be offered? Eh?

Grauniad wrote:
ethnic minority students are marginally less likely to be given offers of places

Define "marginally".

Grauniad wrote:
The gap in expected and actual offers was most marked in European languages and literature, medical sciences such as pharmacology, engineering and biological sciences, with a 1%-2% gap between Ucas’s forecasts and the final offers made by universities

So, wait, the very worst gap that people who were looking for a gap could find was 2%?

Is that even significant? Perhaps they could ask a statistician. Black, white, brown or green, I'm easy.

So, what are we to do about this rampant injustice?

universities minister Jo Johnson wrote:
increase the number of black and minority ethnic students by 20% in the next five years

1) Why? A 20% increase to close a 1% gap? Yes, I know.

2) How? Positive Privilege Points in admissions, teaching resources, or, heck, why not just go ahead and weight A level results with a Diversity Bonus?
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Privilege has no d

Except you are privileged in the UK and overseas as a white person, denying it is a psychological defence people use Phillips & Lowery(2015).

I can sort of understand this, namely because it undermines your achievements as if they were not completely earned by you.

HOWEVER white privilege does NOT mean you get everything handed to you on a plate as many wrongly assume.

It's just that certain things which add up can cause certain advantages like the CV name thing which is proven to be true:

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/oct/18/racism-discrimination-employment-undercover

This may be a small thing but a job is a gateway to a better quality of life. Relationships and all the good bits of life we're supposed to have.

Hell even insurance:

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?p=4067798

Where people played around and demonstrated a couple of quid cheaper all things equal. Chinese vs UK people. What can we call that discrepancy? A quid or two here is neither here nor there for me, but there shouldn't be a difference.




Citations


Phillips, L. T., & Lowery, B. S. (2015). The hard-knock life? Whites claim hardships in response to racial inequity. Journal of Experimental Social Psychology.


That's a much more sensible description than the SJW one.

There's a good Thomas Sowell vid where according to him discrimination isn't the problem per se, it's whether that discrimination translates into a negative result for the victim group.

He shows that even though chinese/japanese americans have undoubtedly been discriminated against they still outperform the average american in terms of income, educational attainment etc etc
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 20:29 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
I suppose my idealism is only limited to the areas in life where brains are more important than aesthetics.


Oh come on you know better than this. I know you know better than this. We crossed swords last year about it.

I'm sure you and the other person got teaching jobs because of your myriad of teaching qualifications, work experience in teaching and numerous publications in peer reviewed journals right? Question


And that's what I mean.

Whites in China get teaching jobs because of aesthetic instead of merit.

My ideal is the opposite of that.

For the record I didn't teach in the end because I felt like a crook and a fraud.
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smegballs
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PostPosted: 20:37 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:

So in my ideal world I'd say state education is easily on par with private education. The only difference is the sort of ethos you get in public and private schools. State schools more often have kids from bad backgrounds or poorer neighbourhoods, and that's the only reason I can see people getting a worse education - not the quality of teaching necessarily, it's just the wider culture that those kids grow up around, meaning they don't have a drive to learn. I actually think the solution lies in making school a much more serious thing, like the 'good old days' with scary teachers, canes etc. I'm a firm believer in fairly strict state-run institutions for getting the population up to standard without any of this bullshit 'oh your grades are quite low but we all love you anyway'. And no this isn't me supporting some form of state suppression. I'd call it state regulation maybe - abolishing private education is essentially a preventative measure to ensure equal opportunity regardless of wealth. Consider the morons on TOWIE or Geordie Shore. With their reality TV star earnings, if they so wished they could pay themselves into Eton or some super-elite high cost adult education institution and gain an instant head start in a new career, all because 'money'. Is that fair?

TL;DR - you aren't paying for a better standard of education. You're paying to rub shoulders with the future elite. Another case of money+money=money. Not really fair for the real bright sparks who simply can't afford it. Best abolished, really.


So things like: class sizes, staff-student ratios, resources such as libraries/scientific equipment/sports equipment etc etc will be identical in state schools to school where the parents pay several k a term....

In secondary school it was reasonably common to have to share a textbook with someone in class, I don't suppose that happens in a private school.

What about homeschooling or hiring a private tutor for your kids? What if 10 sets of parents decide to club together and hire a tutor to teach their kids together so they still get social interaction? At what point does it become 'bad' in your eyes?
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Reply with quote
smegballs wrote:


So things like: class sizes, staff-student ratios, resources such as libraries/scientific equipment/sports equipment etc etc will be identical in state schools to school where the parents pay several k a term....

In secondary school it was reasonably common to have to share a textbook with someone in class, I don't suppose that happens in a private school.

What about homeschooling or hiring a private tutor for your kids? What if 10 sets of parents decide to club together and hire a tutor to teach their kids together so they still get social interaction? At what point does it become 'bad' in your eyes?


Tough to judge really and I understand the point you're making.

I suppose the real gripe is with extreme wealth where you can essentially buy your way into all the top spots without even having to try. That's what needs to be capped. It needs to become a more even playing field. As I said, the solutions are all quite socialistic. It would have to stretch way beyond just the educational system, with caps on salaries and everything. And nobody really likes the idea of that!
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 20:49 - 10 Nov 2015    Post subject: Re: You are not a name, you're a number! Reply with quote
Quote:
You're also mistaken if positive discrimination helps non white people

Presuming this was aimed at me, ignoring that this sentance doesn't make sense (It's kinda harsh on me if I'm mistaken if a certain thing is true, regardless of my beliefs).
I don't believe I stated anything in that area to be mistaken about?

Niederle et al seems to purely discuss sex and I can't see it mentioning the colour of skin at all? It did show that affirmative action directed at women benefitted women - though personally if I was desinging such a study, I wouldn't choose the test subjects to be purely Harvarad Computer Lab for Experimental Research students if I wanted to understand how the world in general works - it seems unlikely they would be representative of the US populartion as a whole.

I couldn't find useful sources for the other two mentioned in my quick search and am not intending to read an entire book (Ezorsky, it seems). However yes, I did suspect that might be the case.

Go to some areas in West Yorkshire and a white (sic) name won't get you a job at a lot of employers - you'll need a Pakistani one, presuming someone not of that origin can even find that a vacancy exists in the first place.

Oh; I don't think I've suggested that I want an 'advantage' or 'more advantage'. Though I will state now that if the field is stacked against me, I'd prefer it to be level.

As for the second Guardian article - 'marginally less likely'. MARGINALLY.

Just a thought, maybe a bit 'way out', but on the off chance, could it possible be... that the the average Chinese people put forward... had communication difficulties with other staff/customers/etc?
Certainly the case for some 'ethnic groups', especially where they aren't particularly integrated into 'mainstream' British society.
Sadly compnaies do have to work out systems which ensure their time isn't wasted and often this is 'discrimination' - for instance the company that stopped using the job centre for recruitment because of the high level of messers - it discrimates against people that probably need work the most, but is a sensble course of action for the company. Or not employing the fat woman who's been off and on crutches for a lot of her life for fear she'll fall and sue the company despite knowing the nature of work she was applying for (ok, I believe this was accounted for AFTER the experience of this situation).

Living in the UK, we are all 'priveledged'. I checked, ya'see!

However, the insuation that your race/name are the only important factors irks me; there are a wide range of factors that affect how well you do and by the far most important I'd say is 'making an effort'. Some might have all the money and white-rich hereditry, but just not have the genetic/nutured makeup to really push themselves to be as successful as others. Perhaps they should be penalised because they happend to have the right life to succeed, to let the rest of us lazier people to do better?
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