Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Mot looming wiring loom

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Workshop Goto page 1, 2  Next
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

ragamuffin
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 23 May 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:13 - 28 Feb 2016    Post subject: Mot looming wiring loom Reply with quote

Hi. I built an rg125 streetfighter.
The wiring loom is hacked slashed and taped back together.
It's working and as tidy as It can be.

What are the common grounds for failing on electrics? Should I have used a different method for joining the wires other than spit n tape or will it be OK?

Cheers in advance
T
____________________
I don't snore. I dream I'm a motorcycle.
Suzuki gn125 (dropped valve) Sym Wolf 125 (sold) sky jet 125 cbr repsol replica (sold) Suzuki RGr 125 (current)
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Snod Blatter
Crazy Courier



Joined: 21 Nov 2014
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:27 - 28 Feb 2016    Post subject: Re: Mot looming wiring loom Reply with quote

ragamuffin wrote:
common grounds


Hurr hurr.

The tester cannot uncover/undo anything so your horrors will stay hidden under the tape. As long as everything works reliably while the bars are bashed from lock to lock and nothing is obviously rubbing through the insulation you'll be fine.

What have you done though? Surely not just twisted the wires together and taped them up?
____________________
1994 CB250, 1984 CBX250RS-E, 1989 K100RS, 1995 TRX850, 2016 Z250SL
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

ragamuffin
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 23 May 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:50 - 28 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yea twist and stick lol. There wound first then wrapped then tape. So they r secure enough for now. I do want to solder them I am waiting for a solder iron and do it proper but I don't wanna strip it again b4 mot day.
____________________
I don't snore. I dream I'm a motorcycle.
Suzuki gn125 (dropped valve) Sym Wolf 125 (sold) sky jet 125 cbr repsol replica (sold) Suzuki RGr 125 (current)
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Snod Blatter
Crazy Courier



Joined: 21 Nov 2014
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:11 - 28 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be very wary of doing that anywhere in the headlight circuit (or anywhere else..), that is not a good connection and the resistance could lead to melting away the insulation and it shorting or maybe even a small fire. Really not recommended!
____________________
1994 CB250, 1984 CBX250RS-E, 1989 K100RS, 1995 TRX850, 2016 Z250SL
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 16:17 - 28 Feb 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

If all the lights work as they should do, it'll pass the MOT.

I have a mate who had a small fire on his bike which took out the centre portion of his loom.

Not to be daunted, he cut the middle 2 feet out of the main loom and scotchlocked individual wires between the two cut ends to join them together again. Because he's a lazy sod, he did it round the outside of the tank.

So imagine a bike with a total birds-nest of random wires of varying thickneses, lengths and colours, not bound together in a loom, running across the outside of the petrol tank with no fewer than 100 scotchlocks joining the whole mess together. That passed an MOT.

That said, you should use proper crimp-on terminals or connector blocks to join your wires together. or solder splice and shrink-tube if both ends are mobile (don't solder a joint where one side is fixed). Use the correct crimping tool. Twisting and taping is a bad bodge and it will fail eventually, leaving you at the side of the road trying to find which bit of the mess of corroded, rotting wiring and slimy PVC tape is the faulty part (the answer is, all of it).
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 12:48 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would advise getting the connections sorted asap, you will have problems with twist and tape joints, so it's best to sort them with an easy fix.
I would recommend you buy some heatshrink tubing, a soldering iron and solder for an easy fix that would last forever. You can also make your wiring look a lot neater by sealing each individual wire and then use a larger tube to seal a bunch (you obviously need to pre-plan this as the bigger tubes need to be on before you solder any wires.). My wiring hatchet jobs have always looked nice and lasted the distance by using heatshrink, so I can hand on heart say it's worth the few mins and low cost.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Karma :

PostPosted: 12:59 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would have cost ~£10 for a crimpset that could have done the whole loom, twisting them as you have will cause a world of annoyance, when something important lets go and you don't know where it is.
____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:23 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crimping is fine, but the connections are prone to water damage over time. I much prefer sealing with heatshrink for this reason, as well as it looking much tidier. Also the Cost is virtually nothing per connection if you already have a soldering iron and solder, as you can buy a loads of the stuff for a few pounds.

https://blog.hellermanntyton.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SA47_DE_02_kleiner1077x669.jpg
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:31 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solder can crack, it is also not easy to do properly therefor more likely to crack. It's also difficult when you don't have much slack like whilst working on a bike.

Solder in an ideal world is better, but rarely is it an ideal world.

Crimps are much easier to do properly. I've always used crimps and never had one fail once it has been put on properly, I waterproof them with self amalgamating tape you could also use heatshrink.
____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:36 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Solder joints are fine in theory but you need to be picky where you use them. If they are used in a high movement area, the copper wire either end of the solder can flex, work-harden and break. It's ok if you want to splice a new piece of wire into an older one.

On the whole, crimps are much more reliable

You should always use the type of crimp which also seals the insulation on vehicle wiring. Two crimps per terminal. You can but pre-insulated ones or ones that come with a little silicone sleeve that fits over them (all the big japanese motorcycle manufacturers use these). Using the correct crimping tool is essential to roll the ends into he wire, pliers are NOT a crimping tool.

If I read corrctly what the OP has done, he's cut back the standard loom and joined it back together again.

The best way to have done this would be to cut back each wire in turn to the correct length and fit a new terminal on the end matching the old one.

If you've cut a lump out of the middle. I'd suggest multi-connector spade terminal blocks are now your friend.

I'm going to be doing a bit of wiring soon. Re-doing the rear sub-loom on the enfield. I'll take pictures.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:49 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I'm not saying that heatshrinking is the best method or the defacto method, I'm just saying that if youre lazy and a tight arse, it offers a water tight seal and will last forever, for next to no cost. Solder cracking isn't an issue as you would twist the wires together and seal with the solder, so its not like the solder is making a weld joint, it is binding and filling any space.

The best and most secure way is to crimp on proper connectors and then heatshrink over the top of these, but it's not something that is needed, as I have had wiring last for over a decade and still go strong with a twist/solder/heatshrink joint.
Also there are some places where a bunch of connectors wont fit back into their routing, due to the sheer size of them in one place, this is never an issue with a heatshrunk wire, as it doesnt grow in size by any noticeable amount. I suppose it's all personal preference, but I just like the cleanliness of my method.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

ragamuffin
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 23 May 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:12 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the great info. Because I have changed the back and front lights - more added than replaced this bike was stripped - im gunna need to be able to disconnect the lights and controls - be easily taken apart again if needs be. Say to put original parts back on. 2bh tho I think it's too far gone for that lol. It's hacked b4 I started and I hacked it some (lots) more. Lights are now high low on the on off switch, park light always on. Horn hardwired into the loom. It's a mess but it works.
I have tidied it up, some wires had 3 joins in them.
So what I need to do is a multitude of all these ideas, solder the hacked wire's for the new headlight controls within the loom and crimp connectors for the lights horn and controls so they can be easily removed.

I'm gunna need a new loom to make this bike original again.
The bikes on you tube if u wanna have a look. Search suzuki rg125 gamma there's 2 vids it's a black bike with silver stripe.

Thanks for the info and insights

T
____________________
I don't snore. I dream I'm a motorcycle.
Suzuki gn125 (dropped valve) Sym Wolf 125 (sold) sky jet 125 cbr repsol replica (sold) Suzuki RGr 125 (current)
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 15:29 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:
Solder cracking isn't an issue as you would twist the wires together and seal with the solder, so its not like the solder is making a weld joint, it is binding and filling any space.


It's not the solder that cracks. The solder makes the cable you've tinned rigid. This creates a stress point directly below the soldered portion. Any flex in the cable will now happen at that one point directly below the solder where the copper has been annealed by the heat. It's in the nature of copper to work harden as it's bent, with repeated bending, it eventually snaps.

I've seen it happen several times and it's a total sod to track down.

I used to flow solder into my crimp terminals but stopped doing so for this exact reason. I'll solder stationary joints but not ones that are free to move/flex.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:33 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
It's not the solder that cracks. The solder makes the cable you've tinned rigid. This creates a stress point directly below the soldered portion. .


It would be no different than the copper that comes out the back of a crimp then. Unless there are such things as flexible crimps.

Anyhow, I've never had a cable snap in the manner you've mentioned, but I tend not to have any joints made in stressed areas.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:13 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pjay wrote:


It would be no different than the copper that comes out the back of a crimp then. Unless there are such things as flexible crimps.

Crimps clamp the insulation against the cable before it exits the crimp so it can't flex independantly . They also don't anneal the copper.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:34 - 01 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:

Crimps clamp the insulation against the cable before it exits the crimp so it can't flex independantly . They also don't anneal the copper.


You make a fair point.

I've still never had one of my joints go bad and will report back to you if one ever snaps Smile
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Bridgehouse
Renault 5 Driver



Joined: 11 Dec 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 00:45 - 02 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd have two answers to this question.

Firstly, for MOT purposes - self amalgamating tape can hide a multitude of sins and make it look tidy. As long as the tests work as they should do then = pass (lights, horn, indicators etc. etc.)

The thing I would be worried about is how safe the install actually is. Last thing you want is a short - or something dangerous that could cause fire. I understand fire is a bad thing on a bike.

Even best case is something stops working and somewhere in the mess of wires is an issue that's been lurking ready to piss you off at the most inconvenient time.

I personally wouldn't use a soldered joint. I do lots of soldering in non-bike activities and still wouldn't do any on a bike at all. It's good solid bullet connectors for me all the way.
____________________
2015 Triumph Street Triple - 2015 Honda CB500F - 1976 CB400 Four (Stripped - and undergoing restoration)
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Vincent This post is not being displayed because the poster is banned. Unhide this post / all posts.

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 10:01 - 02 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vincent wrote:

How long would a twisted joint last if it was wrapped in decent heat-shrink?


I buy my heatshrink from RS, which like the picture posted above has an inner that liquidises and creates a very waterproof seal. Like I said, I have had them last for over a decade on moving equipment without a single fail, so I can vouch for it as a low cost and solid connection.

The main problem, as with anything is doing it right in the first place, making a good twist of wires, then soldering so the solder floods well and then I sheath each individual wire and then where possible, a few together. This makes for very clean and stable connections.

I of course am not saying my way is better than another way that will last the course, I am just saying my way looks nicer and is cheaper and easier to do (for me at least) as crimping has always caused me issues with over crimping and with rerouting of cables once you have a bunch with crimps on. I am today changing my old indicators with LED ones and will be cutting off the supplied bullet connectors and will be soldering and shrinking the connections. This is just for continuity, as the bullets have a decent seal on them, but just dont look as spangly as some shrink wrap.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Vincent This post is not being displayed because the poster is banned. Unhide this post / all posts.

Pjay
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Jan 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:15 - 02 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vincent wrote:
That liquidised stuff in the centre of the heat shrink......does that set solid, or is it still pliable?

This stuff ja?

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/heat-shrink-cold-shrink-sleeves/4811797/

When it states "3:1" in the description, is that the shrink rate?


Yes that's the stuff. the 3:1 is indeed the shrinkage.

Flexible, flame-retarded heat shrinkable tubing with an integrally bonded adhesive inner lining, designed to provide a permanent encapsulation for protection against moisture. The heat shrink can be used in a wide variety of applications such as electrical wire splices, cable jackets, wire breakouts, strain relief and protection boots for electrical components. Manufactured from an irradiated polyolefin material, the sleeving has a specially formulated adhesive inner wall which melts when heated and is forced into component interstices by the shrinking action of the outer wall. When cooled the sleeving becomes a semi-flexible, tough homogeneous encapsulate with a controlled wall thickness.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

sickpup
Old Timer



Joined: 21 Apr 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 08:48 - 03 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

chris-red wrote:
It would have cost ~£10 for a crimpset that could have done the whole loom...


...badly.

It would have cost considerably more to have done it well.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Karma :

PostPosted: 12:10 - 03 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
chris-red wrote:
It would have cost ~£10 for a crimpset that could have done the whole loom...


...badly.

It would have cost considerably more to have done it well.


Still far better than twisting the end together...
____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

bladerunner
World Chat Champion



Joined: 09 Sep 2006
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:08 - 03 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

My advice would be solder and heat shrink as well and strap the loom so it cant bounce about. DO NOT use those crappy blue scotch blocks OR the crappy cheap bullet connectors that you get in most hardware/automotive shops OR those bloody horrible choc block connectors if you want your fix to last more than a month or 2 and fall apart when you next come to work on it!!!!

you can get a rather nifty solution thats heatshrink and pre soldered both ends and just requires a hot air gun to use......they use them at the local military jet base but are about 45p a shot

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Waterproof-Solder-Shrink-Connectors-Soldering/dp/B00ESXX74G


quick and easy as well as tidy if you cant solder just make sure your wire is clean
____________________
Current bikes...cbr929, KDX200's, Rd125lc mk2, RGV250's
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

stinkwheel
Bovine Proctologist



Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Karma :

PostPosted: 14:58 - 03 Mar 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scroll down. 16th post down to see how stong properly attached plastic insulated crimp connectors are.

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=213274
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 10 years, 218 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> The Workshop All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.12 Sec - Server Load: 0.51 - MySQL Queries: 13 - Page Size: 139.31 Kb