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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 12:51 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Good News for bikers & car drivers in Edinburgh ! Reply with quote

The good people of Edinburgh have rejected the City's Councils proposal to bring in congestion charging by a 3 to 1 majority !!! Very Happy I bet the Londoners must be kicking themselves this morning for not doing the same when it was proposed Laughing

Here's the news about it;

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4287145.stm
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ProXimaCore
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PostPosted: 12:56 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought bikers were getting in toll free if the congestion charging went ahead. I was kind of hoping it would have went ahead. Less cars on the road would be much better for the days I take the bike to work.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 13:01 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Glad at least one city has seen through this kind of scheme. Bit surprised that a city that is run by as big a bunch of anti car people around did not manage to skew the poll to produce the results they wanted.

Would not bet on motorcycles staying exempt from the charge. Main purpose of the London one is to provide money to pay for the buses and tube, and motorcyclists cash is as good as car drivers cash.

All the best

Keith
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 13:22 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edinburgh council are a bunch of bloody loonys anyway. They always come up with some hair brained scheme which isn't properly thought out.

This was a good example in that there were no plans to upgrade the public transport infrastructure prior to bringing in the conjestion charging meaning that the people who are driving into the centre of Edinburgh would still have no option other than to do so. The only difference it would make is that the drivers would now be more pissed off as they are once again shelling out to Edinburgh city council in addition to the parking charges and parking fines.

You can absolutley count on the fact that any money that would have been generated from such a scheme would have been frittered away on some pie in the sky plan. A bit like the 'Monorail' episode in the Simpsons.

In my oppinion, the public transport in Edinburgh is responsible for a lot of the conjestion. Look at any line of traffic in the city centre and you will find an obsolete, thirty year old, smoke belching double decker (or three in a row, all with four people in them) at the front of it.
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Zoffo
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PostPosted: 13:47 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't give Edinburgh any more money. Last time the found a 50p piece the built Glasgow with it Mr. Green
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Robin
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PostPosted: 14:28 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not too sure about wether this is a good or a bad thing.

On one hand I disagree with toll roads/charging on any public highway, but.......................




.............In Durham where they have introduced a toll it has cut down traffic, on one of the busiest streets which was/is virtually pedestrian anyway, by 70%. It is now a lot nicer and safer to go shopping there. And a good bit of money has been spent on improving public transport on that section to cater for those who need to go there.

.............In London where PTWs are exempt bike usage has increased and at the same time the number of bike accidents has decreased. Surely less cars=less blind tw@ts to injure bike riders.

Thanks to constant lobbying of Red Ken by the likes of MAG/BMF it would be a major publicity mistake to even think about charging bikes. Bikes do not cause congestion, hence you can not include them in a congestion charge Wink
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instigator
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoffo wrote:
Don't give Edinburgh any more money. Last time the found a 50p piece the built Glasgow with it Mr. Green


heeeeeeeeeeeeeey..... Laughing

Edinburgh in rush hour is a standstill, the whole place is useless and I don't like it one bit.

Shame though. Just because of its traffic makes me not want to visit the place at all.
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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 14:37 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Zoffo wrote:
Don't give Edinburgh any more money. Last time the found a 50p piece the built Glasgow with it Mr. Green


Glasgow's City Council is not much better they wasted a huge amount of money on their new Gasgow Tower and it's hardly seen the light of day with continual failures since almost day 1 from when it opened to the public and shut again, open, shut, .........open and shut again!

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4220295.stm

Back during the Millenium celebrations and afterwards London was the laughing stock of the world with all it's engineering botch up jobs. To me, there is far to many idiots in positions of authority (ie namely Tony Blair) that sign off to what ever company that will pay money into their party's election funds no matter how much it will cost tax payer in the long run !
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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 14:46 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the reaction to the 'No' vote to congestion charging from the Politicians;

https://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4287039.stm

This is one of the proposals put forward by the 'Yes' campaigners.

Better for tourists. Tourists don’t come to Edinburgh to be polluted; many do come to see a World Heritage Site that is unfortunately over-run with cars. Tourists will not have to pay the charge if they hire a car, and if they use public transport they too will gain the benefits of the investment programme.



So, you can guess who has been putting money into the Labour Party's election funds!


This was the results of the final count; https://www.transport-edinburgh.org.uk/
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scotsman37 wrote:
Better for tourists. Tourists don’t come to Edinburgh to be polluted; many do come to see a World Heritage Site that is unfortunately over-run with cars. Tourists will not have to pay the charge if they hire a car, and if they use public transport they too will gain the benefits of the investment programme.


Mmm. Don't live anywhere near Edinburgh so that would make me a tourist. Afraid I would just go be a tourist elsewhere if they want to charge me even more to drive there.

Only way I would support tolls is if they were highly targetted and were also part of a massive overall reduction in road taxation (at the very minimun a 50% reduction in them).

All the best

Keith
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cc123
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used to work in Edinburgh, had to travel from the south city bypass all the way over to Granton. Took me the best part of 30-40 to travel a few miles.

I'd rather wait that time than pay £2 everyday to go to work. I can see the point of the charges but people are not going to pay that kind of money. Over the whole year it's going to add up. And I can't see companies paying for there employee's congestions taxes just to see them make there work surely?
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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

I find it quite easy getting into Granton when travelling from West as I have relatives in that area. Have you tried the new shopping mall on the front where the Royal Yacht is docked? Plenty of Scottish themed gift shops plus a Chinese pottery stand, etc, but no actual electrical shop ie Dixons to be seen, except there is a quite a few vacant lots inside. There is a huge bar/resteraunt area inside and I do mean huge! It costs £9 to walk onboard the Yacht, but you can view it instead from the shopping Mall's inside upper balcony where a shop's cafeteria is located. Shocked

Don't know if you know this, but it's free to park your car/bike in the adjacent carpark (that might be only on weekends if I am correct?) - the bike space (for about 8 bikes in total) is just as you enter as the ramp goes up !
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cc123
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

That will be Ocean Terminal then??

Been a few times but there really isn't anything of interest in there. Was at one of the bars up the top but it was a small fortune for a drink.

Getting to Granton from the west at 7:30am is a different story though. Thank god I don't work in Edinburgh anymore. It's the most depressing place on the planet!
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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 22 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yep, that's the one and it's really only good for one visit just as interesting as going to Oban ! Laughing
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 00:34 - 24 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

A Guardian article on it with a telling quote at the bottom:-

https://society.guardian.co.uk/publicfinances/story/0,12671,1423220,00.html

Quote:
Frustrated by yesterday's verdict, Mr Darling is likely to concentrate on moving towards satellite-based national road charging, which is a goal over the next decade. There could also be more pay-per-drive motorways modelled on the M6 toll around Birmingham. An adviser to Mr Darling bemoaned Edinburgh's fickle voters yesterday: "I've lost faith in democracy. Just because the public don't like things doesn't mean they're wrong."


So what is the betting that next time they will ensure they force it through in another city without asking people people if they want it?

All the best

Keith
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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 01:17 - 24 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

What Edinburgh needs most is an underground Metro Rail system like Glasgow/London, but with an added bonus it connects to a large carpark located say West, South and East of Edinburgh if they really want people to leave their cars behind. I think that would be the best way forward to keep as much of the heavy traffic out of Edinburgh with Park & Ride tickets with almost 24hour coverage for people with early and late starts for work or just going out to bars/cinema and nightclubs, etc. The stations themselves at the carparks could be above ground to save digging tunnels for such a long distance ?

They could also place bus stops at those places that I suggested just in case there is a problem with the underground and personally I would make me want to use the option park & ride as long as there was a security guard(s) protecting those carparks!

The only ones I see complaining would be the over priced taxi drivers of Edinburgh - freakin' expensive so they are !
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mchaggis
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PostPosted: 11:34 - 24 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it won't be too long before they start introducing toll roads all over the place/ converting existing roads which we pay for with road tax into toll roads.

Hence, we'll still pay our road tax and everything we used to, but be expected to pay extra to use any major roads. Typical. This government don't know what democracy is. Neither does this country. All democracy seems to mean is that we give them a mandate to ru(i)n the country for the next five years.

None of this by the people, for the people crap, that'd be far to fair, and we couldn't help out our mates who've donated a little to our kitty... Rolling Eyes
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 02:58 - 25 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
What Edinburgh needs most is an underground Metro Rail system like Glasgow/London


There is no way you could have an underground in Edinburgh. The whole town is built on the side of a cliff and the town centre is on about three different levels with a big ravine (princes street gardens) in the middle. Noone even knows how far underground half the buildings go, they are constantly finding new sub-basements or even entire 'lost' streets in the old town.
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 25 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

I got a ticket in Edinburgh last summer when I returned about 15mins after my 30min pay and display ran out.
I had had to extend my visit to a nearby cafe as I was choked up with projectile diarrhea.
I was not too happy to have to pay the £1.00 pay 'n' display for 30min in the first place.
But luckily I managed to almost hit the fascist pig who put the ticket on my car.

Point being, it's good to use the bike to avoid parking, congestion etc. But do any of my learned friends on this forum know of any town or city that provides 'proper' facilities to park motorcycles.
We, the brave (Or stupid), still pay £60.00 road fund duty.

Bikes can't normally trip the barrier sensors in multi storeys.
Glasgow have one row of motorbike parking, that I know of, on one street next to the city chambers. We do get to use the push-bike areas, but they're a pig to get into with a big bike. (I don't mean between the metal pipes in the pavement.)

Are we really not wanted?

Don't get me started!!!!
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Scotsman37
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PostPosted: 11:41 - 25 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a lot a more than just one free motorcycle parking zones in Glasgow and Edinburgh has them too.

Glasgow;

Waterloo Street (next to the central station and it has a metal barrier built for bikes to chain up to)
Campbell Street (located between Bothwell Street and St. Vincent St)
Holland Street (just outside Strathclyde Police Station)
Douglas Street (next to Blythswood Square)
Blythswood Street (just down from Blythswood Square)
Wellington Street (next West Regent Street and Bath Street)
Hope Street (next to West Regent Street)
George Street (next to North Frederick Street)
North Portland Street
Stockwell Street (nearby St. Enoch Shopping Centre)


Edinburgh;

The Ocean Terminal's car park
Queen Street (several of them there that I've seen)

I did have a list but I shall have to find them and I originally got them by contacting Glasgow and Edinburgh's city councils for that info.


Last edited by Scotsman37 on 11:55 - 25 Feb 2005; edited 1 time in total
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Walloper
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 25 Feb 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for putting me right Scotsman37, Sorry Glasgow District Council.
Observation was one of the things we talked about on DAS. Ooops!

I'll be able to park easier when I get my new bike.
G
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 01:59 - 02 Mar 2005    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Somewhat related, the real reasons for the rise of the London congestion charge have surfaced:-

https://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/londonnews/articles/16949092?version=1

This Is London wrote:

Motorists misled over C-charge extension
By David Williams Motoring Editor, Evening Standard
1 March 2005

Transport chiefs were today accused of misleading motorists over the congestion charge increase.

In July, the charge will rise from £5 to £8, and in early 2007 the scheme will move westwards under Transport for London proposals. TfL said the rise was to deter motorists from entering the zone and to stop the charge being "devalued".

But documents seen by the Standard suggest the real reason for the hike is to ensure the scheme does not plunge into the red under the burden of expanding into Kensington and Chelsea.

Transport for London's Preliminary Consultation Draft says: "Comparing the costs and benefits of a western extension, the net effect of a £5 and £8 extension over 10 years of operation can be calculated." It says a £5 charge would be "unlikely to cover the costs".

But an £8 charge would "broadly cover the resources it would consume" - it could even generate £210 million over 10 years under "favourable" conditions. The document says a £5 charge could make £20 million over 10 years but only if large numbers of motorists carry on paying to drive in - and if operating costs are lower than expected. Otherwise there could be "an overall financial loss", the document warns.

If the charge's finishing time is cut back to 6pm from 6.30pm as demanded by businesses, loss of benefits could be even greater, totalling £40 million to £80 million over 10 years.

In November Mayor Ken Livingstone announced he was going to increase the charge to ?8, after previously indicating it would rise to ?6. When challenged by LBC radio phonein host Nick Ferrari the following month, the Mayor said simply: "I changed my mind." Today the RAC Foundation, and Tories and Liberal Democrats on the London Assembly, attacked the ?3 hike.

"When congestion charging was launched the mayor said it was about cutting congestion - not raising money," said RAC Foundation executive director, Edmund King. "Now

TfL's own document shows the main reason for boosting the charge is not - as TfL says - to cut traffic further but simply to ensure the western extension can go ahead."

Angie Bray, Tory transport spokeswoman on the Assembly, said: "The increase from £5 to £8 is not just about extra revenue or less congestion but survival of the scheme." Lynne Featherstone, Lib-Dem chairwoman of the Assembly's transport committee, said: "This new information blows a massive hole in the Mayor's argument as to why the congestion charge should increase from £5 to £8. It is time for the Mayor to come clean with Londoners about his reasons for putting up the charge."

In April last year, before the proposed £8 charge was revealed, TfL admitted there could be a ?5 million loss if not enough drivers paid to enter the expanded zone and if operating costs were at the top end of predictions.

Today TfL denied the rise to £8 was connected with profits or making the extension viable. A spokesman said: "TfL and the Mayor have made very clear the basis on which any increase from £5 to £8 is being suggested. Profitability of the proposed western extension is not the issue at hand."

In a BBC London interview this week Mr Livingstone said he "very much hoped" to introduce the congestion charge extension, regardless of public opposition. "It's good for them," he said. "It will have a further big reduction in congestion, pollution and accidents, and a further improvement in reliability of buses."


All the best

Keith
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