Smart Thermostat + reducing heatloss

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

I'm looking at getting a smart Thermostat wondering if anyone has any experience with them.

I'm looking at Tado at the moment, I like that it tracks where you are and will turn the heating off when you leave or put it on when you are near home.

Anyone have any tried any others? Hive, nest etc.

Also I am looking to improve how well my house holds the heat. we have an extension which is noticeably colder than the rest of the house so I guess something wasn't insulated well, we have a shabby looking roof window that is my prime suspect. I'm thinking about hiring a thermal Camera for a day to see where I am bleeding heat, any tips or advice about that? Anyone in London/Essex area have one I can borrow to save me a few quid?

Cheers,
Chris
____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.

B5234FT · Brolly Dolly Joined: 28 Sep 2009 Karma :

The problem with all of this technology is that hydrocarbons are still too cheap to make it worthwhile.

The average house ownership is 13 years, but far lower among young people (those who tend to like gadgets like intelligent wireless thermostats) and the average gas bill is £750 quid a year (and again, younger people tend to live in smaller homes), so making a saving by fitting hundreds of pounds worth of insulation after the fact and shiney new thermostats is difficult.

Much easier to justify it from the point of view of comfort. I personally dont care about saving a tenner a month on gas, but its nice coming home to a warm house, not having cold rooms you avoid using etc.

What sort of construction method was used for the extension? air movement loses heat more rapidly than conduction and then once you're looking at conduction, roofs and windows are far worse than even bad walls.

dodsi · Dirty Carny Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Karma :

We had a whole new heating system installed in July this year - we went from an inefficient electric panel heater/night storage combi things to a proper gas combi boiler installation.

At the time of installation we had a Nest system installed - after much deliberation as to which smart thermostat system to get. I chose the nest because after looking at all the reviews and features it appeared about the best on the market. In addition to having the thermostat you can also integrate other smart home equipment with it - such as a nest 'protect' which is basically a clever smoke/CO alarm.

This allows you to place your thermostat anywhere in your home and have it heat your home to the set temperature in any given location. be aware that other rooms could be +/- this temp due to fluctuations but TRV's would help combat this a little.

The nest system also has an 'away' feature which you set when you are out then 'Auto' away uses your phone(s) location(s) to know when you are in. All you do is change the temperature as and when you need it. The less faffing around with it the better it learns your schedule and then just heats your home as and when it works out it needs to. You can alter these schedules manually.

We turned ours 'on' on friday, it has since ran only for 3.5 hours in total since then to keep the place at 20c - however it has not been /that/ cold but neither is our property particularly energy efficient.

Currently the indoors temperature is 19.5c but the heating is not running as it knows we are not at home.

when it does get cold, all it will do in periods that we are away is let the property drop to 9c and heat it back up to your set temperature in line with your schedule of when you are in the property.

Even 'Turned off' there is a pipe protect system that will turn your heating on to stop anything freezing inside the property if it needs to - this is something like 3c.

all in all, very impressed as its simple to use and has massive gadget appeal.

Would I buy one if I wasn't doing a whole brand new install? I would like to say no as you probably wouldn't reclaim the outlay in energy savings over a reasonable time. However - I am the kind of Tosser who signs up for the apple upgrade program so probably would just for the gadget appeal.

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

I got a guy from a local eco chairty to come round and do me a thermal survey.

Was very useful but you've got to know what you're looking for and pick when you do it.

Best bet is a reasonably bright morning with a breeze belowing in the prevailing direction when the temperature inside the house is higher than the outside temperature.

You go round the house looking for thermal gradients, spot temperatures and draughts.

Upshot of my one was that my wall and loft insulation was good (he spotted the insulation hadn't been fully poked down in one corner). The doors and windows were also fine but were all draugty and needed new seals and hinges. Few other draughts about the place.

So main thing was refurb the windows and replace my porch and garage doors with outside grade ones. I was expecting to have to redo the cavity walls and get new windows.

If someone is pointing a thermal camera at the roof of your house, they are a conman. The guy wasn't too expensive and his experience and advice was very useful.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

stevo as b4 · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Jul 2003 Karma :

I can understand smart heating and room/zone stats in larger family homes. I'd say it needs to be a 3bed plus home, with adults and kids living there, and preferably people with very different levels of hot/cold bloodedness. Also if the occupants were not much of a family unit and liked being in different parts of the home to each other for long periods. Maybe one works from home in the office room and only needs that room warm in the day etc.

But a small 1-2 bed place with an individual or a couple without kids, it seems totally pointless. Small and efficient homes don't take much heating or time to warm up, so coming home to a cold house might be a 10-15min inconvenience at the most?

And what is this gadget aspect appeal that you speak of? I take it it's the same thinking as the people that like auto headlights, wipers and lane departure warning or evadeance systems in cars, or launch control and anti wheelie systems on their bike?

I'd like my heating system to be simple, powerful and easy to fix and get spares for. I'd also like it to be specced with big reliable components, all brass valves and pumps, and have a simple control system that has replaceable parts.

Will these intelligent heating systems be like that or will they be constantly superceded and made obscelesent quickly with each new version? Where in 15years will you get a new pcb for the controller from?

B5234FT · Brolly Dolly Joined: 28 Sep 2009 Karma :

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

ScaredyCat · World Chat Champion Joined: 19 May 2012 Karma :

I presume you live alone because one person leaving a house shouldn't disable the heating.

I'd stay away from Nest. Not only are google know for dropping products and leaving you with nothing recently nest eol'd some of their stuff breaking something that still worked because they turned off the servers that handled those devices.

I'll also point to the time that the Nest thermostats shut off when they couldn't contact the servers. That's right, shut off rather than staying at the same of any sort of sensible 'average' temperature.

You do not need that fine a control over your heating anyway.

When you buy a product like any of those you listed you're putting yourself in a position where you have lost control. Then again, it could be worse, you could have bought a heatmeiser ...

Set the thermostat to the temperature you want, get a timer for your boiler.

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

How did he spot the draughts?
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

cagiva gezzer · World Chat Champion Joined: 17 Mar 2003 Karma :

I used a basic IR fluke gun - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fluke-FLUKE-62-MAX-Infrared-Thermometer/dp/B008EW837S - from work to go around a point at walls / gaps / joints to get an idea of temperature gradients.

It was useful to trace drafts and then pull up laminate flooring to find shabby work / holes to block. It also showed thermal bridging from ceiling joists.

If you want a IR camera we hire equipment from BSRIA - not sure if they would hire to Joe Public through
https://www.bsria.co.uk/instrument/hire/temperature/thermal-imaging-cameras/
____________________
"because one stroke isnt enough and four strokes waste two"

dodsi · Dirty Carny Joined: 06 Aug 2004 Karma :

Diggs · World Chat Champion Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Karma :

Things to look for:

Draughts - obvious one. Remember though that your house needs to breath otherwise condensation will build up and it will slowly rot from the inside out.

Heating/Hot Water System - lots of debate about this one, but generally accepted that a current condensing combi-boiler is about as efficient as you can get when used with TRVs (thermostatic radiator valves) and a control system with its thermostat carefully placed to optimise room temperature and frequency of boiler firing up. The hall is often seen as the best place for this.

Wall insulation - depends upon the age and construction of the original house. If it has a cavity for example it is generally considered acceptable to fill walls that aren't exposed to prevailing winds/rain. If it doesn't or you live on top of a mountain then internal insulation is an option if you don't mind loosing a bit of floor area.

Floor insulation - depends upon the build, but if you have suspended timber floors you can fill between the joists. Usually only practical if you have a void beneath the house and are happy to get very dirty... Makes a massive difference though!

Windows and doors - do you have modern (i.e. post 2002) double glazing? If you don't it is worth putting these on your 'to do' list. Easiest way to tell is to look at the rubber seal. General rule of thumb is that if the big bit of the seal is external and pronounced then your windows will be pre 2002.

Roof insulation - a 'warm roof' (i.e. with insulation between the rafters rather than the joists) is generally considered a better option than your standard loft insulation. Loads of good reasons.

If your extension was designed in the 1990s then it almost certainly was constructed to Building Regs of the time. The U Value of the walls should be low enough to keep heat in, as should that of the roof given that you don't have a ceiling. Could be that you need to change your rooflight, line with thermal-backed plasterboard and insulate between the floor joists. Do all this and it will most likely be the warmest room in the house!

Caveat - this is 'off the cuff' advice and I am not liable etcetcetc....
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Gone (in order of ownership) - Raleigh Runabout, AP50, KH125, GP125, KH250, CBX550, Z400, CB750FII, 250LC, GS550, ZXR750H1, Guzzi Targa, GSX750F, KH250 x2, Bimota SB6R and counting...

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

Oh, right, I didn't realise it would show up that well on IR. Back in the day, folk used to use smoke puffers. Butter was a reasonable price then too, and policemen were polite.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

stinkwheel · Bovine Proctologist Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :

I was surprised too.

Here's my living room window:
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/DC_4096.jpg

Here's the thermal image showing a reasonable leak round the window seal, especially in the corner and a major one round the outside of the window casing.
https://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f216/stinkwheel/IR_4095.jpg

Two new hinges (£2.50 each), new rubber seal (£10 for 25m), a wedgethingy to make the window shut square (£1.99) and a bead of frame sealant and the living room is noticeably warmer for longer.
____________________
“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

Lawks, even the rental price on thermal imaging cameras is £100+ a day. Those sensors don't come cheap.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

ScaredyCat · World Chat Champion Joined: 19 May 2012 Karma :

Rogerborg · nimbA Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :

Counterpoint: £200 buys you a lot of insulation.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :

Looking at the FLIR One myself. Please don't bid on the one on eBay Laughing

____________________
Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything.

chris-red · Have you considered a TDM? Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Karma :