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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:37 - 15 May 2019 Post subject: |
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Can I have some mint Yogurt to go with this Argy-Bhaji, please?
Monkeypony wrote: | Yes, you can shift your body to turn the bike with no hands on the bars. But if you look down, as you shift your weight to the left, to turn the bike left, you'll magically witness the bars move to the right. Because "COUNTERSTEER" |
And so the argy-bahjo grows...
Like I said, Define Counter-Steer, ONE defanition and stick with it.
IF you want Counter-steer to be contra-bar-loading and ONLY contra bar loading, so be it... but then its NOT the only way to make a bike turn, and no hands riding MUST be effecting steering through some other mechanism's, LIKE shear weight shift, NOT counter-steer.
If you ride no-hands, and see bars turn to the right, momentarily when you lean to the left.. you have just witnessed a progression effect... wonderful.... NOW decide what you want to hang the 'Counter-Steering' label on; a conscious rider input, like contra-bar-loading, OR any and every apparently perverse pregression effect...
Its a Cause or Effect, it CANNOT be both, and an effect cannot be its's own cause. So make your mind up, and once you have decided on the definition STICK with it.
Like YOU say.... its not rocket science..... ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Monkeypony |
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Monkeypony World Chat Champion
Joined: 21 Sep 2011 Karma :
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bhinso |
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bhinso World Chat Champion
Joined: 21 Jun 2008 Karma :
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Karma :
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Posted: 15:23 - 15 May 2019 Post subject: |
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Monkeypony wrote: |
There is no option to have the front wheel pointing right AND turn right.
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At the risk of getting embroiled in this, but I'm not entirely convinced about this. I think that the act of pressing the bar on the side you want to turn has the effect of leaning the bike over which in turn then allows for a slight steering input (in the direction of the turn) to get around the corner. I don't think the steering input is actively made, but rather pressure is modulated on the bars to achieve the cornering desired and the bike geometry results in the front wheel tilting into the bend to achieve a cornering radius.
As I understand it, the steps would effectively be, as heading in a straight line into a right hand bend;
- apply pressure to the right side of the handlebars
- this causes the bike to try and turn left, but because there are no resisting forces to the bike, it tilts to the right (with no resisting forces, it doesn't take much steering input, hence why it appears to be just the application of a bit of pressure rather than actual steering, and for the same reason why the bike doesn't move much in terms of the line it's travelling along)
- as it tilts to the right, the steering will naturally "fall" into the bend
- the forces would reach equilibrium where the combined forces of the bike's cornering (i.e. the resultant force vector) line up with the tyres, therefore maintaining a steady lean (if they were to the left of the tyres, the bike would sit up, if they were to the right, the bike would lean further)
- if a tighter cornering radius is needed, more pressure on the right side of the bar causes the force vector to shift to the right of the tyres, the bike leans further, therefore a tighter turning radius is needed to provide an equal and opposite force
To put it another way, if the front tyre was pointing left but the bike was turning right, the tyre would have to be sliding on the road surface ____________________ TG. |
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Monkeypony |
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Monkeypony World Chat Champion
Joined: 21 Sep 2011 Karma :
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Posted: 15:40 - 15 May 2019 Post subject: |
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ThunderGuts wrote: |
As I understand it, the steps would effectively be, as heading in a straight line into a right hand bend;
- apply pressure to the right side of the handlebars
- this causes the bike to try and turn left, but because there are no resisting forces to the bike, it tilts to the right (with no resisting forces, it doesn't take much steering input, hence why it appears to be just the application of a bit of pressure rather than actual steering, and for the same reason why the bike doesn't move much in terms of the line it's travelling along)
- as it tilts to the right, the steering will naturally "fall" into the bend
- the forces would reach equilibrium where the combined forces of the bike's cornering (i.e. the resultant force vector) line up with the tyres, therefore maintaining a steady lean (if they were to the left of the tyres, the bike would sit up, if they were to the right, the bike would lean further)
- if a tighter cornering radius is needed, more pressure on the right side of the bar causes the force vector to shift to the right of the tyres, the bike leans further, therefore a tighter turning radius is needed to provide an equal and opposite force
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Absolutely, that is countersteering, or, to put it another way, how you steer a motorcycle.
Beginning the procedure by turning the bars to the right (applying pressure to the left hand bar) will never initiate a right turn, hence, countersteering is not optional. Nor is it something you learn. It's totally instinctive. ____________________ Current bike - 2018 H2-SX, 2004 SV1000s, 2016 Aprilia RSV4 RF, 2017 Sherco SERF 300, 2003 Suzuki DRZ400 (stolen - AY53 JUU) |
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ThunderGuts |
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ThunderGuts World Chat Champion
Joined: 13 Nov 2018 Karma :
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Monkeypony |
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Monkeypony World Chat Champion
Joined: 21 Sep 2011 Karma :
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Nobby the Bastard |
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Nobby the Bastard Harley Gaydar
Joined: 16 Aug 2013 Karma :
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 17:33 - 15 May 2019 Post subject: |
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Well I think we can agree the phase "counter-steer" is counter-intuitive ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo World Chat Champion
Joined: 09 Oct 2015 Karma :
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Jmoan |
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Jmoan Brolly Dolly
Joined: 18 Nov 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 20:02 - 15 May 2019 Post subject: |
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If he lowsided the bike he might have slid under the truck and not survived. |
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 09:37 - 16 May 2019 Post subject: |
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And there's me thinking this was one of my least de-railed threads ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Monkeywrenche... |
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Monkeywrenche... Nearly there...
Joined: 27 Mar 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 15:00 - 16 May 2019 Post subject: |
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Teflon-Mike wrote: | Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | I first read about counter-steering in the famous 'Richards Bicycle Book', which I think pre-dated Keith Code's descriptions. |
No, it doesn't. First piublished in 1983, it doesn't even pre-date Twist of the Wrist, first published 1982. Meanwhile Code started to promote his ideas of 'Counter-Steer in the mid 1970's, creating the Californian Super-Bike School in 1980; as aspiring club road-racer and part time journo, gaining guro status in the states, mentoring some of the US super-bike stars, converting from dirt to tar at the time, where he extolled his ideas eventually offered in the book, maybe five or six years later.
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Richards bicycle book was published in 1972 ____________________ 2001 Aprilia RSV Mille R -dead, 2016 XSR 700-gone, 2018 Dorsoduro 900 |
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Easy-X |
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Easy-X Super Spammer
Joined: 08 Mar 2019 Karma :
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Posted: 23:21 - 18 May 2019 Post subject: |
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Annnnddd.... coming back from the city tonight I managed to pretty much tear round the Kingston one-way system only using the brakes at traffic lights. Turns out that you can just ease off the throttle to slow down (slight engine braking) ofc I was only doing around 40 quite a reasonable speed so easy-peasy I suppose ____________________ Husqvarna Vitpilen 401, Yamaha XSR700, Honda Rebel, Yamaha DT175, Suzuki SV650 (loan) Fazer 600, Keeway Superlight 125, 50cc turd scooter |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 6 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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