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So, cornering...

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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



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PostPosted: 14:37 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can I have some mint Yogurt to go with this Argy-Bhaji, please?

Monkeypony wrote:
Yes, you can shift your body to turn the bike with no hands on the bars. But if you look down, as you shift your weight to the left, to turn the bike left, you'll magically witness the bars move to the right. Because "COUNTERSTEER"


And so the argy-bahjo grows...

Like I said, Define Counter-Steer, ONE defanition and stick with it.

IF you want Counter-steer to be contra-bar-loading and ONLY contra bar loading, so be it... but then its NOT the only way to make a bike turn, and no hands riding MUST be effecting steering through some other mechanism's, LIKE shear weight shift, NOT counter-steer.

If you ride no-hands, and see bars turn to the right, momentarily when you lean to the left.. you have just witnessed a progression effect... wonderful.... NOW decide what you want to hang the 'Counter-Steering' label on; a conscious rider input, like contra-bar-loading, OR any and every apparently perverse pregression effect...

Its a Cause or Effect, it CANNOT be both, and an effect cannot be its's own cause. So make your mind up, and once you have decided on the definition STICK with it.

Like YOU say.... its not rocket science.....
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Monkeypony
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
So make your mind up, and once you have decided on the definition STICK with it.

Like YOU say.... its not rocket science.....


Countersteering is the fact the a motorcycles front wheel must be pointing left if you want to turn right. Whether that input is unconscious, deliberate or a side effect of weight shift, it's still 'countersteering'

It's really, really simple.

There is no option to have the front wheel pointing right AND turn right.

Therefore, everyone that has ever ridden a bike and successfully executed a turn or weave has applied countersteer.

Which is why it confuses learners when they suddenly have it explained to them that they 'should' be doing it.
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is it my imagination or is this thread turning into some sort of willy-waving competition?

A bit like pro's at the gym arguing 'roids or something.

When someone told me about counter-steering it blew my head up a bit, then went out on my KMX125 and discovered I did it naturally without thinking anyway. Unusual for me that.
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ThunderGuts
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PostPosted: 15:23 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeypony wrote:

There is no option to have the front wheel pointing right AND turn right.


At the risk of getting embroiled in this, but I'm not entirely convinced about this. I think that the act of pressing the bar on the side you want to turn has the effect of leaning the bike over which in turn then allows for a slight steering input (in the direction of the turn) to get around the corner. I don't think the steering input is actively made, but rather pressure is modulated on the bars to achieve the cornering desired and the bike geometry results in the front wheel tilting into the bend to achieve a cornering radius.

As I understand it, the steps would effectively be, as heading in a straight line into a right hand bend;

- apply pressure to the right side of the handlebars
- this causes the bike to try and turn left, but because there are no resisting forces to the bike, it tilts to the right (with no resisting forces, it doesn't take much steering input, hence why it appears to be just the application of a bit of pressure rather than actual steering, and for the same reason why the bike doesn't move much in terms of the line it's travelling along)
- as it tilts to the right, the steering will naturally "fall" into the bend
- the forces would reach equilibrium where the combined forces of the bike's cornering (i.e. the resultant force vector) line up with the tyres, therefore maintaining a steady lean (if they were to the left of the tyres, the bike would sit up, if they were to the right, the bike would lean further)
- if a tighter cornering radius is needed, more pressure on the right side of the bar causes the force vector to shift to the right of the tyres, the bike leans further, therefore a tighter turning radius is needed to provide an equal and opposite force

To put it another way, if the front tyre was pointing left but the bike was turning right, the tyre would have to be sliding on the road surface
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Monkeypony
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PostPosted: 15:40 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:

As I understand it, the steps would effectively be, as heading in a straight line into a right hand bend;

- apply pressure to the right side of the handlebars
- this causes the bike to try and turn left, but because there are no resisting forces to the bike, it tilts to the right (with no resisting forces, it doesn't take much steering input, hence why it appears to be just the application of a bit of pressure rather than actual steering, and for the same reason why the bike doesn't move much in terms of the line it's travelling along)
- as it tilts to the right, the steering will naturally "fall" into the bend
- the forces would reach equilibrium where the combined forces of the bike's cornering (i.e. the resultant force vector) line up with the tyres, therefore maintaining a steady lean (if they were to the left of the tyres, the bike would sit up, if they were to the right, the bike would lean further)
- if a tighter cornering radius is needed, more pressure on the right side of the bar causes the force vector to shift to the right of the tyres, the bike leans further, therefore a tighter turning radius is needed to provide an equal and opposite force



Absolutely, that is countersteering, or, to put it another way, how you steer a motorcycle.

Beginning the procedure by turning the bars to the right (applying pressure to the left hand bar) will never initiate a right turn, hence, countersteering is not optional. Nor is it something you learn. It's totally instinctive.
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ThunderGuts
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Joined: 13 Nov 2018
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Monkeypony wrote:

Absolutely, that is countersteering, or, to put it another way, how you steer a motorcycle.

Beginning the procedure by turning the bars to the right (applying pressure to the left hand bar) will never initiate a right turn, hence, countersteering is not optional. Nor is it something you learn. It's totally instinctive.


I think we're on the same page . . . I think the confusion arises from the concept that the bars turn to the left and stay there for the duration of a right hand turn . . . they don't, they turn to the left momentarily to introduce lean, then once that lean is there an actual turn to the right (with the bars pointing to the right) becomes possible
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Monkeypony
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
I think we're on the same page . . . I think the confusion arises from the concept that the bars turn to the left and stay there for the duration of a right hand turn . . . they don't, they turn to the left momentarily to introduce lean, then once that lean is there an actual turn to the right (with the bars pointing to the right) becomes possible


You'll still never point the front wheel to the right during the turn.

As soon as you release the input on the right hand bar, the bike will stand up, and you'll be going straight again.

Trust me!

The only way the front wheel will end up pointing right to complete the turn, is if you've slowed to a ridiculously low speed.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:30 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

I normally lean over a bit....
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HardlyDavidso...
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PostPosted: 17:33 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I think we can agree the phase "counter-steer" is counter-intuitive Wink
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Well, IF you define Counter-steering as the act of contra-bar-loading to initiate a turn... that's patently not true; as Kevin Schwantz victory lap demonstrates, however wide the track, whatever speed he was going; and even more Code proves his own statement to not be true with his demonstration of the no-bars-bike!

Splitting hairs. You could wait for the wind to push the inner bar and call it a counter-steering effect but the topic here is how you deliberately and rapidly commence a turn at speed. If you want to think of peg-weighting as leading to a counter-steering effect go ahead, but turning the bars is way more effective.

Edited, because that part was nonsense! Embarassed
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Jmoan
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PostPosted: 20:02 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThunderGuts wrote:
This is the video of the guy getting it wrong. He did survive I believe (somehow!!).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVE79XT8-Mg


If he lowsided the bike he might have slid under the truck and not survived.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 20:45 - 15 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:

You cant have you Kyak and Sink it!


Yes you can. Try hitting a rock in a PBK15.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 09:26 - 16 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Teflon-Mike wrote:

You cant have you Kyak and Sink it!


Yes you can. Try hitting a rock in a PBK15.


It's the parable of the Eskimo, after the first white-trader arrives and sells him a paraffin camping stove. Eskimo with cold feet, decides that this would be a wonderful way to warm his kyak, and keep his feet warm; so starts paddling around with the primus tucked between his legs... and all goes fine.... until the primus stove burns through the seal-skin, and he sinks.... which shows you.... cant have your Kyak and HEAT it.... dunnit.... thought you would have 'got' that one!
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HardlyDavidso...
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PostPosted: 09:37 - 16 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

And there's me thinking this was one of my least de-railed threads Rolling Eyes
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Monkeywrenche...
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PostPosted: 15:00 - 16 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
I first read about counter-steering in the famous 'Richards Bicycle Book', which I think pre-dated Keith Code's descriptions.


No, it doesn't. First piublished in 1983, it doesn't even pre-date Twist of the Wrist, first published 1982. Meanwhile Code started to promote his ideas of 'Counter-Steer in the mid 1970's, creating the Californian Super-Bike School in 1980; as aspiring club road-racer and part time journo, gaining guro status in the states, mentoring some of the US super-bike stars, converting from dirt to tar at the time, where he extolled his ideas eventually offered in the book, maybe five or six years later.



Richards bicycle book was published in 1972
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HardlyDavidso...
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PostPosted: 23:21 - 18 May 2019    Post subject: Reply with quote

Annnnddd.... coming back from the city tonight I managed to pretty much tear round the Kingston one-way system only using the brakes at traffic lights. Turns out that you can just ease off the throttle to slow down (slight engine braking) ofc I was only doing around 40 quite a reasonable speed so easy-peasy I suppose Smile
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