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Tight valve clearances.

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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 17:53 - 23 Feb 2020    Post subject: Tight valve clearances. Reply with quote

Q, can a gsx 600f bike engine with tight valve clearances run ok above 3,000 rpm to just under the red line???????
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 23 Feb 2020    Post subject: Re: Tight valve clearances. Reply with quote

jaffa90 wrote:
Q, can a gsx 600f bike engine with tight valve clearances run ok above 3,000 rpm to just under the red line???????

Probably, if not under load. How tight? If you use it like that on the road and the valves are held off their seats, you may get erosion of the seating faces.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 20:24 - 23 Feb 2020    Post subject: Re: Tight valve clearances. Reply with quote

jaffa90 wrote:
Q, can a gsx 600f bike engine with tight valve clearances run ok above 3,000 rpm to just under the red line???????


I would have thought with your experience you would know.
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 23 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes under load, i would say that this would show up more resulting in a power loss, please correct me and one or two others on here.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 22:06 - 23 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why on earth wold you want to?

Under no load, it would probably even rev to the redline if you replaced one of the pistons with a tennis ball.
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 01:30 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaffa90 wrote:
Yes under load, i would say that this would show up more resulting in a power loss, please correct me and one or two others on here.


Are you asking because they are tight or because you want to tighten them and try cooking the seats? What do you mean by tight, can't get a feeler gauge of any size in there or a snot under the recommended clearance?

Too large a clearance is not good, too small is worse as it is likely to cost more to put right when it starts damaging internals.
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 01:34 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Why on earth wold you want to?

Under no load, it would probably even rev to the redline if you replaced one of the pistons with a tennis ball.


I do not understand your reply,
i`m refering to,
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=329791
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 02:12 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's a duplicate thread?

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
So, '98 GSX600F. Needs a fuckton of choke and held around 3-4K until properly warm - 5-10 mins.

Once it's warmed up, it runs as you would expect any IL4 600 to, and starts back up instantly if still warm/hot.

You can't touch the throttle on startup, or it just wont start. When it does start, it will idle about 1500-2K for a few seconds. So far, that's what I expect, that or a minor variation of, is what I've experienced on any carb bike I've ever owned or ridden.

It then jumps to 4-5K without you doing anything whatsoever, not touching the choke or throttle, and wont let you back off the choke until its properly warm. 4-5K on choke is not normal for any bike I've ever ridden, irrespective of motor layout or number of cylinders. Warmup takes 10 mins or so. You can touch the throttle after 2 or 3, but it bogs like a demon even without load. If you try to ride it in any shape or form before you can drop the choke off altogether and idle at just over 1K, it'll bog and die. I'll get a vid later on if I get time.

Why are valve clearances thought to be the problem?
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 06:35 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're a bit of a cock-end Jaffa. Actually, a lot cock end. If you want to have a pop at me, tell me I'm wrong, say whoever told me something is wrong, cry from teh rooftops the entire world is wrong and only you are right - Have at it. Just grow a pair and tell me to my face, and stop the fucking around with this passive aggressive bullshit.

To answer your question - The bike will rev, to the redline. Under load. I warmed it up and thrashed it yesterday. I haven't checked it clearances yet.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sniff... sniff....sniff.

Can anyone else smell Flounce?
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 10:52 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not getting at you T.D.T, it`s,
"""However, a few people have suggested the valve clearances may be tight"""
If a bike/engine performs at high revs but not low revs without choke, who are these few people who think it`s the valve clearances ?????
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 11:03 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tight valves can present as not starting without cough and spluttering for a couple of minutes when cold and running fine when hot.

It's all down to different metals expanding at different rates when hot. The head an expand more than the valves, opening up the clearances.

Fz series bikes are renowned for doing this.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would I be right in saying you want the valve clearances as loose as you can to not introduce unnecessary wear under load but not so loose that you have trouble starting the thing?

I'm sure there's a double entendre that could be worked in there somehow Thinking
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You want it with sufficient clearen e that the valves close completely. You dont want them coo large because that's inefficient.

If the valves get too tight they actually end up as negative clearance (ie partially open when they should be closed) resulting in the engine grumbling instead of starting until it's got sufficiently warm as described above.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 15:15 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Tight valves can present as not starting without cough and spluttering for a couple of minutes when cold and running fine when hot.

There would have to be "negative clearance" Smile The OP should have a look, he said he would. I wonder what he'll find.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:18 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Tight valves can present as not starting without cough and spluttering for a couple of minutes when cold and running fine when hot.

There would have to be "negative clearance" Smile The OP should have a look, he said he would. I wonder what he'll find.


Depends on the ambient temperature. In winter it would be more apparent.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:40 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Riejufixing wrote:
There would have to be "negative clearance" Smile The OP should have a look, he said he would. I wonder what he'll find.

Depends on the ambient temperature. In winter it would be more apparent.

Ah yes. The old valve clearance adjustment seasons, twice a year Smile
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:44 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally, the .15 mm on the exhaust and .10mm on the intake will be sufficient regardless of weather, but when they are at .00 at 23 degrees celsius, once you get down to close to zero that lack of gap becomes an open valve.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 17:35 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaffa90 wrote:
Not getting at you T.D.T, it`s,
"""However, a few people have suggested the valve clearances may be tight"""
If a bike/engine performs at high revs but not low revs without choke, who are these few people who think it`s the valve clearances ?????

The standout one's are a mechanic (car, also has 3 bikes), and a racer (on an R6 I think - It's blue, pointy and loud) and does all his own spannering. Some other people have said the same, but no idea if they have professional or hand on experience. I'd say the 2 that do were fairly likely to have a good idea. Either way, when the weather calms down enough to actually get carbs off and cam cover open without half of N.Wales flying into places I don't want it to, we'll find out if it's valves. Got the Haynes here, Intake .10-.15, exhuast .18-.23.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:37 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

R6? Fz family....
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 24 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
R6? Fz family....


Pretty sure it's an R6. Used to race a GSX-R before that.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

jaffa90 wrote:
Yes under load, i would say that this would show up more resulting in a power loss, please correct me and one or two others on here.


Ok I'll correct you.
If the valves are tight but the valves still close and they don't hit the pistons an engine will actually all things being equal produce more power than an engine where the clearances are over sized.

The reason for this is that the vlaves will open more allowing more mixture in during the open window, this will help the engine achieve volumetric efficiencies greater than 100%.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
The reason for this is that the vlaves will open more allowing more mixture in during the open window, this will help the engine achieve volumetric efficiencies greater than 100%.

"It's all in the lift action"

(sorry... I'll get me top)
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jaffa90
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
jaffa90 wrote:
Yes under load, i would say that this would show up more resulting in a power loss, please correct me and one or two others on here.


Ok I'll correct you.
If the valves are tight but the valves still close and they don't hit the pistons an engine will actually all things being equal produce more power than an engine where the clearances are over sized.

The reason for this is that the vlaves will open more allowing more mixture in during the open window, this will help the engine achieve volumetric efficiencies greater than 100%.


If the valve clearances are tight when checking then how do you know if they are closing at 10,000rpm ??????????????
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Same reason why you know they close at 10k when they aren't quite as tight.

The fucking engine runs. As soon as the gaps close so much that they aren't closed when the engine is warm, the engine wont start at all
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