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Clutch not disengaging (ER-6F)

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Eki
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Clutch not disengaging (ER-6F) Reply with quote

So, short story long. Last year I planned to ride up north to my brothers for Xmas, I'd fixed my bike with lots of swearing, blood and more swearing (head races, then ignition switch). Riding my bike to Asda it kept losing power, rev up and it was really struggling to get anywhere before it conked out.

Managed to drive her home, really slowly, and the engine oil was a lovely chocolate milk colour, so I figured head gasket. Of course, the thing I should have thought was "check with BCF in case it's something simpler".

So I ordered all the parts I needed and then more parts because the coils for the 06 ER-6's are rubbish (switched for nice Mitsubishi ones which work), after much more swearing, blood and snapped bolts (even using a torque wrench) I got the bike back together.

It works, she starts and runs and I've solved the coolant in engine oil problem (probably by luck) but now my clutch won't disengage the engine from the wheel. I put it into 1st, pull the clutch and the wheel is locked (it rotates as free as a bike that's been left over winter can rotate, must do brakes, when in neutral).

I've taken the clutch panel off and ensured it's hooked correctly to the pully outty thingy so it is pulling on the..... thing, it's just not disengaging the engine.

I have warmed up the engine previously (radiator flush after head gasket) so it's probably not that it needs heating up. I didn't really touch any clutch parts doing the head gasket, only took the side panel off for the plastic bit that goes up the chain bit, and to clean out all the white goo.

So any suggestions on what can be preventing my clutch from working? I have adjusted it at the handlebar, it does pull the actuator, I didn't touch the adjusters near the actuator.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:01 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Re: Clutch not disengaging (ER-6F) Reply with quote

Eki wrote:
I've taken the clutch panel off and ensured it's hooked correctly to the pully outty thingy so it is pulling on the..... thing, it's just not disengaging the engine.

IF the actuator is actually working, the clutch plates have stuck together. Get the cover off, undo the bolts holding the pressure plate on, take all the plates out, then put it all back together. There are various less mechanically sympathetic ways which may work.
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Eki
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is there a way to check the actuator arm is correctly pulling on the pully thingy? I've gone through 5 litres of fully synth so far, so as you can imagine I'm slightly wary of another oil change, mainly because I'd need to buy another 5 litres of oil, and a new clutch gasket.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 18:34 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eki wrote:
Is there a way to check the actuator arm is correctly pulling on the pully thingy? I've gone through 5 litres of fully synth so far, so as you can imagine I'm slightly wary of another oil change, mainly because I'd need to buy another 5 litres of oil, and a new clutch gasket.

Perhaps try getting a friend or two to help? Without starting the engine, put the bike in gear (second or above perhaps, to make it easier), and push it along with the clutch lever pulled in to disengage the clutch. It might free up, IF a stuck clutch is the problem. Then you wouldn't have to take it to bits or do anything graunchy. You should surely be able to feel by operating the clutch lever if it's actually doing what it should?
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doggone
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PostPosted: 18:40 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might try to free the plates by deliberately making it slip say in 3rd or 4th gear until it stalls, if it doesn't work after 2 or 3 tries don't push your luck.
Actually getting into a higher gear will be the issue but you might do it with wheel off the ground (then brake).
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kgm
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PostPosted: 18:49 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's fresh oil thats in it, why not just drain it and then use the same oil when you refill?
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 19:09 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You don't generally have to drain the oil to remove the clutch side casing if you leave it on the side stand.

The clutch shouldn't sit in an oil bath.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 26 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would the old trick of clamping the clutch lever overnight work?
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 07:17 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Would the old trick of clamping the clutch lever overnight work?


I think you just made this up.

The clutch pack us held together under spring pressure, releasing that pressure doesn't force the clutch pack apart so it might work but probably not.
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andym
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not that I know anything about anything, I'm probably drunk, stoned or high (at 8:09am), but I'd have thought the bike would need to sit for a very long time (couple of years at least), for the clutch plates to stick together.
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 08:29 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

andym wrote:
Not that I know anything about anything, I'm probably drunk, stoned or high (at 8:09am), but I'd have thought the bike would need to sit for a very long time (couple of years at least), for the clutch plates to stick together.


Amazingly not. My friends VFR750 used to do it if left for a couple of weeks. All it took was a few revs and whacking it into gear with the front wheel against a wall to free it off.

A change in oil brand from cheap as chips to a proper motorcycle oil cured it.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 09:44 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Amazingly not. My friends VFR750 used to do it if left for a couple of weeks. All it took was a few revs and whacking it into gear with the front wheel against a wall to free it off.


Probably important to point out when doing this that you need to keep the clutch pulled in or it hurts. Wink
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
Amazingly not. My friends VFR750 used to do it if left for a couple of weeks. All it took was a few revs and whacking it into gear with the front wheel against a wall to free it off.


Probably important to point out when doing this that you need to keep the clutch pulled in or it hurts. Wink


True, but in my defence if you don't keep the clutch pulled in you are hardly going to free up the stuck plates and that is the idea. If you don't get how it works, dont try it!!!
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 10:04 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
True, but in my defence if you don't keep the clutch pulled in you are hardly going to free up the stuck plates and that is the idea. If you don't get how it works, dont try it!!!


This is BCF where people give advice without knowing how things work or what the result will be, best to be clear Thumbs Up
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 13:35 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:
Polarbear wrote:
True, but in my defence if you don't keep the clutch pulled in you are hardly going to free up the stuck plates and that is the idea. If you don't get how it works, dont try it!!!


This is BCF where people give advice without knowing how things work or what the result will be, best to be clear Thumbs Up


Guilty as charged Shifty The clamping the clutch thing is something mentioned to me in passing... as in "would it hurt to try?"
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Bhud
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PostPosted: 13:57 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

You could put the bike on its sidestand to save the oil, then remove the clutch side cover (try to save the clutch cover gasket if you can), and then remove the clutch plates individually. Give them a soak in oil for a couple of hours, then refit.
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Eki
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

My thinking about the clutch plates, because of the head gasket there exists this yucky white gunk, you can see it in the clutch cover when you pull it off, and as the entire engine wasn't pulled apart there existed old "bad" oil.

Once the engine was rebuilt and a new filter/oil inserted, it was warmed up and drained, this oil being heavily contaminated with the original yucky oil. So even though I changed that oil, the complete oil is not "pure", so draining and refilling it is refilling it with contaminated oil (I'll hopefully burn it off once I can ride my machine).

But yes, I believe the reason it's stuck is most likely due to the white gunky stuff acting as some sort of glue on the plates rather than being something super bad like a ton of rust.

--edit

Turns out I was over thinking things, my bike was on an Abba stand and I couldn't move the wheel by hand with clutch pulled in. Putting it on the ground and a push was more than enough.

However my original problem remains. Got on her and a tiny ride, if I give it a rev to around 6k+ it struggles before going "nope", I thought that was a symptom of the head gasket being blown so I'm pretty much back to where I was before xmas.


Last edited by Eki on 16:11 - 27 Feb 2020; edited 1 time in total
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MCN
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PostPosted: 16:10 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fill it with the correct oil.
Then let it run for a while to stir the fresh oil around the clutch pack.

But is it is sticking it's probably the coolant mixed with oil that has gummed up the splines and goo-ed the plate surfaces together.

It may be a case of opening the clutch and spraying brake cleaner everywhere to try to un gum the bitch/es.

Another old trick is to go down the pub and get drunk with your mates and fcuk the bike.
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 16:12 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eki wrote:
But yes, I believe the reason it's stuck is most likely due to the white gunky stuff acting as some sort of glue on the plates rather than being something super bad like a ton of rust.


The white gunky stuff also known as emulsified oil will have caused a degree of corrosion which is causing the problem.

Take the clutch pack out, clean off the metal plates and any other corrosion and then use the bike. Lots of use will stop it from happening again, leave it standing and it'll probably happen again.
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Riejufixing
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 27 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eki wrote:
Turns out I was over thinking things, my bike was on an Abba stand and I couldn't move the wheel by hand with clutch pulled in. Putting it on the ground and a push was more than enough

Yay!

Eki wrote:
However my original problem remains. Got on her and a tiny ride, if I give it a rev to around 6k+ it struggles before going "nope", I thought that was a symptom of the head gasket being blown so I'm pretty much back to where I was before xmas

Mmm, another problem... Use another thread to keep things indexed nicely? Probably not then.... Smile Can you describe "I give it a rev to around 6k+ it struggles before going "nope"" a bit more?
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 06:58 - 28 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
Amazingly not. My friends VFR750 used to do it if left for a couple of weeks. All it took was a few revs and whacking it into gear with the front wheel against a wall to free it off.


This.
My VFR was properly stuck after a couple of months. Had to get quite violent with banging it into gear and clutch releases to get it to play, never seen a clutch that stuck before, thread is on here somewhere. Oil brand didn't seem to make a difference, nor did different springs, plates etc. You just need to take it out to play every week or so.
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Eki
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 28 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Riejufixing wrote:

Mmm, another problem... Use another thread to keep things indexed nicely? Probably not then.... Smile Can you describe "I give it a rev to around 6k+ it struggles before going "nope"" a bit more?


It's just a lack of power, in neutral I can happily rev it up, but riding along I'll rev it up to 6k and it'll refuse to go higher before eventually losing power.

Fuel starvation maybe? Fuel contamination? There was a little leak in the top of the tank (now fixed) so maybe water has got into the fuel, though I did put fresh fuel in it not long ago.

Could it be an issue with the ignition switch (not the proper ER6 one, but the ninja 250 which does fit), or an issue with switching the headlights over to LED?
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sickpup
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 28 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eki wrote:
Could it be an issue with the ignition switch (not the proper ER6 one, but the ninja 250 which does fit),


Possibly yes. I've never taken the ignition switch apart on my ER6f 2008 but I would bet there is a resister in it to drop the voltage to the CDI down to 9v. Is there one in the Ninja 250's ignition switch?

Eki wrote:
or an issue with switching the headlights over to LED?


Unlikely, it doesn't have a CANBUS system.

Does the FI light come on at all? Normally if it won't rev over 6000 the FI light would come on and stay on until you turn the ignition off and on again.

Has anyone read the ignition to see if it has any stored codes?

Are the battery and charging system ok?

Did you by any chance fit an after market exhaust around the time the problems started?

Most importantly what are the coils you fitted?
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Eki
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 28 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

sickpup wrote:

Possibly yes. I've never taken the ignition switch apart on my ER6f 2008 but I would bet there is a resister in it to drop the voltage to the CDI down to 9v. Is there one in the Ninja 250's ignition switch?


Honestly, no idea. A quick look at google notes you can switch the 250 to a simple on/off switch, though there is a 100ohm resistor (totally no idea)

sickpup wrote:

Does the FI light come on at all? Normally if it won't rev over 6000 the FI light would come on and stay on until you turn the ignition off and on again.


I wasn't aware of the FI light coming on, the weather has taken a turn for the worst and with high winds expected it's back on the Abba stand to prevent falling over, but I don't recall seeing the FI light coming on.

sickpup wrote:

Are the battery and charging system ok?


Brand new battery, fully charged also

sickpup wrote:
Did you by any chance fit an after market exhaust around the time the problems started?


Nope, totally stock, although there is an oxygen sensor cable on the exhaust which was not fitted to anything, just tied down to the frame. Might be to do with the after market air filter that was installed (that I didn't know about so bought a new air filter and found out it was using an after market jobby all along.

sickpup wrote:
Most importantly what are the coils you fitted?


The 6k RPM problem was before the coils were swapped, but, I'll fill you in based on research I did before the swap. The original coils for the ER6 (and Versys for 06-09 were 21171-1286 (Denso 129700-4580) which were total and utter rubbish, quickly replaced with Denso 129700-5350 (by Kawasaki, the 4580's would rust and crack and be a pain to remove without a hammer).

What also fits are the F6T560's from Mitsubishi. So instead of spending £110 per coil, I spent £24 for two. it is a straight swap.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:53 - 28 Feb 2020    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aftermarket air filter wouldn't require the disconnection of the lambda sensor.

Has it decided to jump into limp home mode cause of the disconnected lambda sensor? Does it even have limp home?
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