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VFR800FI Clutch Lifter Rod

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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 15:35 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: VFR800FI Clutch Lifter Rod Reply with quote

So, the bite point on the 800 is just before the lever is fully released. It's been like this since I got it. There's no slip at all, but I would like to have a bit more range in the lever travel. It's hydraulic so there is no adjustment. I've checked out all the slave side of things, given it all a clean, flushed the fluid etc. I've also got the 750 to compare it to (which I think is honestly identical). It's all fine.

But it looks like the "clutch lifter rod"(14 on the pic) that goes through the engine to the clutch is sticking out too far on the slave side. You can't refit the slave cylinder flush, the rod pushes it away from the engine, so to refit it I had to use tightening the bolts to get it back flush. I can directly compare this to the 750, and yeah, it's sticking out too far. Given that this means that the clutch is always partly actuated, this explains the symptoms at least.

https://i.imgur.com/dsXCFhL.png

I've pulled out the rod and cleaned it (it was pretty clean anyway) and that didn't make any difference. Clearly I need to get in on the clutch side. Since I'm getting in there (and the clutch has possibly never been changed), I've ordered friction plates/springs/bolts/gasket.

Question is, what am I going to find? What could be causing this? My first thought is crap filling up the rod seat on the clutch side (11 on the pic I think). But what are the other possibilities that I need to look for? Could it simply be worn plates? There were 2 versions of the clutch for this model, I have the earlier version with an extra plate. Could the wrong version have been fitted and this explain the symptoms?
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 15:42 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

has someone put a ball bearing in on the end of the shaft?
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
has someone put a ball bearing in on the end of the shaft?


Is that something someone is likely to have done?
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:00 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some bikes with that clutch setup do have then and one may have been added at one point.

Did you ensure the slave cylinder was fully retracted before fitting?
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 18:04 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Re: VFR800FI Clutch Lifter Rod Reply with quote

Zen Dog wrote:
Could it simply be worn plates? There were 2 versions of the clutch for this model, I have the earlier version with an extra plate. Could the wrong version have been fitted and this explain the symptoms?

Not worn plates. Worn plates would have the opposite effect; clutch bite when the lever is pulled in nearly all the way. The wrong version could explain your symptoms. Maybe a notched clutch basket, warped plates, mis-assembly, or maybe just the clutch bolts were not tightened down evenly. When you get it apart and clean the parts, stack the clutch plates and compare to your new set. Your symptoms suggest the old clutch pack will stack taller than the new set, if the new plates are the correct version for your bike.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually it could be worn plates but i doubt they would make much difference. A shorter stack will mean the pushrod will be pushed out further on the slave cylinder side.

Remember the clutch a tuator is on the opposite side of.the engine.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:01 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Only things I can think of are the bearing (18) not being properly seated in the pressure plate, the rod seat (11) not being properly seated in the bearing or the rod not being properly seated in the seat.

Other things would be missing spacers or simply wrong parts.
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nobby the Bastard wrote:
Some bikes with that clutch setup do have then and one may have been added at one point.

Did you ensure the slave cylinder was fully retracted before fitting?


Yeah, it doesn't actually stay fully retracted, as there's a spring that pushes it forward, but you should still be able to push it flush with the engine. On the 750 you can, on the 800 you can't.
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 12 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
Other things would be missing spacers or simply wrong parts.


This is what I'm most worried about, as lots of the smaller parts are simply not available from Fowlers/David Silver etc. But we'll just have to see.

EDIT - I wouldn't normally worry about a VFR having the wrong parts or anything, VFR owners are usually sensible types, and the guy I bought it off seemed so. But after seeing state of the scottoiler when I got it (and it had been messed with by someone who clearly didn't understand how it worked) I had a few doubts. Then I recently gave it a service, and the air filter looked like this.

https://i.imgur.com/0vDTt0P.jpg

The black bits are foam off the underside of the tank, but the seeds? I have no idea how the hell they got in there. These are not the floaty, get sucked in, airborne type. And the path air takes to the filter isn't straightforward. Did the guy ride through a wheatfield at high speed? Get handfuls of seeds thrown at him by an angry ploughman? I have no idea. But it does make me worry what I might find. Will the clutch cover be full of turnips? On the upside, the clutch is actually functioning perfectly aside from the bite point, so I'm hopeful it's something simple.
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 16 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Right, so I've got the clutch pack apart. I forgot how much of a pain it is cleaning the old gasket off (especially when it gets stuck on the engine side). Anyway, checked all the parts against the service limits (friction plates, spring free length etc.), also it's got the right number of plates and all the parts seem to be correct and in their correct positions. Anti-judder spring and seat all present and correctly orientated. No ball bearing on the end of the lifter rod or in the rod seat.

Literally all I've got at this point is below. With the slave bolted flush on the other side, this is the lifter rod on the clutch side. -

https://i.imgur.com/7yM0GZu.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/6fhPSNn.jpg

And this is an image from the service manual -

https://i.imgur.com/Anc2TgA.png

Assuming the manual isn't showing it with the slave removed on the other end, it's sticking out too far. So, somehow (and it seems unlikely), the lifter rod is 1cm too long? What other possibilities are there?

I have seen mentioned on the VFR forums that the return hole on the master cylinder can get clogged, leading to a build up in pressure that means it doesn't release fully, I did clean this out as part of my initial efforts to sort this issue, as well as flushing the fluid but maybe I didn't do it well enough?

Any suggestions welcome as I really can't think of any other possibilities now.

More pics here in case they are of any use - https://imgur.com/a/pIGBMYr
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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to v or not to v
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PostPosted: 17:54 - 16 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

my clutch is hydraulic too and also has a very late release point. are you sure this isnt a symptom of hydraulic clutches?
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 23:38 - 16 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

to v or not to v wrote:
my clutch is hydraulic too and also has a very late release point. are you sure this isnt a symptom of hydraulic clutches?


I am sure, but only because my VFR750 has a very similar (if not identical) clutch setup, and it's not like this. The clutch begins to bite roughly in the middle, as you'd expect.

I've been thinking about it this evening, and I'm coming to the conclusion that it's most likely to be the return hole on the master. When I cleaned it last time, I just soaked up all the spooge at the bottom, flushed all the fluid until it was clean, and thought that was good enough. But someone mentioned sticking a thin wire down the return hole to clean it out, so I'll try that next, as the only alternative seems to be sourcing a replacement lifter rod on the dubious possibility that it's the wrong one, or finding someone who has the same model as me and getting them to measure theirs.
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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Zen Dog
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PostPosted: 20:53 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I put the clutch back together with the slave side off, and then put the slave side back on. It was taking some force to tighten the bolts on the slave to get it flush......... and then there was an barely audible "pfft" from the master up on the handlebar, the pressure disappeared off the bolts and I was able to snug them up easily.

And now it's fixed. So I think the force of the clutch (with its new heavy duty springs) did the job of clearing the return hole on the master for me. At least I know not to waste my money on a new clutch kit next time. And it's all working, so yay.
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Current - '94 VFR750FR (Dead), '00 VFR800FI, 2011 CBF125 Previous - '10 Street Triple R, '92 MZ ETZ301, '05 TTR250, NSR125R, KMX125, "Honda" Win (chinese copy of an old Honda design with a C90 engine)
My bike trip around S.E. Asia 2010/2011
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 21:31 - 18 Jul 2022    Post subject: Reply with quote

On a positive note, now you have a back up clutch. If you keep the bike long enough, eventually the clutch will wear out, and you can re-fit the OE clutch at that time.
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