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rusty bits removal

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adam277
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PostPosted: 16:45 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: rusty bits removal Reply with quote
I'm curious, would wd-40 and a tooth brush remove the rust from rusty bolts and other areas on a bit with surface rust on them? i.e as in the picture.

https://i.imgur.com/Vq4WFqz.jpg
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 16:57 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
You are seriously considering putting WD40 by your disks?
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adam277
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PostPosted: 17:02 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
You are seriously considering putting WD40 by your disks?


It was just an example picture I could shown you some handle bar surface rust. But I am just looking for tips really.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:13 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
No. It might remove some dirt but a toothbrush isn’t abrasive enough and WD40 is basically light oil in a water-dispersing, volatile solvent. It won’t tackle rust spots.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Either ACF50if it's just very minor rust,but if it's any worse you really need an acid based rust treatment. This will make the rust go purple.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 17:26 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
If you remove the rust you'll be left with bare steel which will almost immediately rust up again. They were probably zinc plated or passivated originally but that thin coating is now gone.

You'd need to take the fittings off and either replace them or remove the rust and treat them with something to protect them from rusting again. This would usually be either black phosphate coating or zinc plating.

Or just leave it because replacing them would be very expensive as some of the fittings will be oddball sizes meaning you have to buy OEM ones. Re-plating fittings is stupidly time consuming.

You could swap some out for stainless but it's not appropriate for every fitting, either due to the materials they are going into or the mechanical properties of the fittings. So if you don't know which applications these are, probably best not to. For example, I wouldn't use stainless on either brake rotors or calliper bolts unless it was a very specific grade of stainless.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Phosphoric Acid transforms iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate. That can be brushed off.
And leaves a bare surface ready to be oxidised again. Cool

Strong (less diluted) vinegar works too.

Acids are corrosive so they need to be neutralised after using.

The bastirts add phosphoric acid to Cola as a 'brightener' Flavour/texture enhancer.

Since the took the Coca leaf extract out of Cola its never been the same. Crying or Very sad
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
Phosphoric Acid transforms iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate. That can be brushed off.
And leaves a bare surface ready to be oxidised again. Cool


Not it doesn't.

Phosphoric acid reacts more strongly with the iron than the oxygen and deposits a thin layer of strongly adhered black iron phosphate under the rust. The majority of the rust then falls off, leaving the surface coated in black iron phosphate which does not come off very easily. This is effectively how they apply the black coating to nuts and bolts (dip them in hot, conc phosphoric acid)

Aceatic acid (white vinegar) and muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid/spirit of salts/harpic X10 toilet cleaner) react with the iron below the rust to forn a layer of iron acetate or iron chloride. These are soluable in water and so loosen off the rust allowing it to be easily removed by brushing or running under a tap leaving bare metal which almost immediately flash rusts again unless you rinse in a neutralising solution and apply WD40 prior to drying/degreasing properly and applying your chosen coating.

"electrolysis" does a similar thing to muriatic acid by causing a layer of complex soluable iron III salts to form at the point of oxidisation instead of rust, thereby loosening the rust off.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:
MCN wrote:
Phosphoric Acid transforms iron oxide (rust) into iron phosphate. That can be brushed off.
And leaves a bare surface ready to be oxidised again. Cool


Not it doesn't.

Phosphoric acid reacts more strongly with the iron than the oxygen and deposits a thin layer of strongly adhered black iron phosphate under the rust. The majority of the rust then falls off, leaving the surface coated in black iron phosphate which does not come off very easily. This is effectively how they apply the black coating to nuts and bolts (dip them in hot, conc phosphoric acid)

Aceatic acid (white vinegar) and muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid/spirit of salts/harpic X10 toilet cleaner) react with the iron below the rust to forn a layer of iron acetate or iron chloride. These are soluable in water and so loosen off the rust allowing it to be easily removed by brushing or running under a tap leaving bare metal which almost immediately flash rusts again unless you rinse in a neutralising solution and apply WD40 prior to drying/degreasing properly and applying your chosen coating.

"electrolysis" does a similar thing to muriatic acid by causing a layer of complex soluable iron III salts to form at the point of oxidisation instead of rust, thereby loosening the rust off.


Phosphoric Acid transforms iron oxide into iron phosphate.

"Some rust converters may contain additional acids to speed up the chemical reaction by lowering the pH of the solution. A common example is phosphoric acid, which additionally converts some iron oxide into an inert layer of ferric phosphate. Most of the rust converters contain special additives. They support the rust transformation and improve the wetting of the surface." Wikipedia

"Phosphate conversion coating is a chemical treatment applied to steel parts that creates a thin adhering layer of iron, zinc, or manganese phosphates, to achieve corrosion resistance, lubrication, or as a foundation for subsequent coatings or painting." Wikipedia
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adam277
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PostPosted: 19:24 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
So is there like an answer that a dumb fuck like me can understand?

Like here go buy this shit off amazon and use that. lol.
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stinkwheel
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Joined: 12 Jul 2004
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PostPosted: 19:37 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
adam277 wrote:
So is there like an answer that a dumb fuck like me can understand?

Like here go buy this shit off amazon and use that. lol.


De-rusting lightly corroded steel fittings is like trying to ice-skate uphill. Even if you make some progress, you'll land up back where you started very quickly.

You could reasonably easily use a phosphoric acid based product to make them go black, expensively replace them or time-consumingly re-plate them.

On balance, just ride it.

I black wax/oil finish some of the fittings on my enfields for cosmetic purposes where you heat them up pretty hot and apply engine oil or beeswax with a rag (hot enough to make it smoke) which deposits a reasonably tough black patina on the surface. it would look odd on a modern bike though.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 19:47 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:

Not it doesn't.

Phosphoric acid reacts more strongly with the iron than the oxygen and deposits a thin layer of strongly adhered black iron phosphate under the rust. The majority of the rust then falls off, leaving the surface coated in black iron phosphate which does not come off very easily. This is effectively how they apply the black coating to nuts and bolts (dip them in hot, conc phosphoric acid)

Aceatic acid (white vinegar) and muriatic acid (hydrochloric acid/spirit of salts/harpic X10 toilet cleaner) react with the iron below the rust to forn a layer of iron acetate or iron chloride. These are soluable in water and so loosen off the rust allowing it to be easily removed by brushing or running under a tap leaving bare metal which almost immediately flash rusts again unless you rinse in a neutralising solution and apply WD40 prior to drying/degreasing properly and applying your chosen coating.

"electrolysis" does a similar thing to muriatic acid by causing a layer of complex soluable iron III salts to form at the point of oxidisation instead of rust, thereby loosening the rust off.


Phosphoric Acid transforms iron oxide into iron phosphate.

"Some rust converters may contain additional acids to speed up the chemical reaction by lowering the pH of the solution. A common example is phosphoric acid, which additionally converts some iron oxide into an inert layer of ferric phosphate. Most of the rust converters contain special additives. They support the rust transformation and improve the wetting of the surface." Wikipedia

"Phosphate conversion coating is a chemical treatment applied to steel parts that creates a thin adhering layer of iron, zinc, or manganese phosphates, to achieve corrosion resistance, lubrication, or as a foundation for subsequent coatings or painting." Wikipedia[/quote]

It might do somewhat but probably not to a massive degree, iron 2 oxide is a very stable molecule which doesn't give up its electrons easily. Also turning the iron oxide into iron phosphate wont achieve anything useful in terms of preventing further corrosion or removing the existing corrosion, it'll be just as stuck or loose as it was before. At best it'll stabilise the surface of the rust but mostly it'll just change its colour. You want the iron phosphate on the surface of the metal where it will not come off easily.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.
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Nobby the Bastard
Harley Gaydar



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PostPosted: 19:53 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
I'm presuming, in that case, the stuff I have that makes rust go purple and then stops it ever rusting again has phospheric acid in it.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 20:06 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I'm presuming, in that case, the stuff I have that makes rust go purple and then stops it ever rusting again has phospheric acid in it.


There was at one time stuff called rust eater that removed rust.
Now it's a white sunny stuff that turns rust into a blue black oxide.

Perhaps it has phosphoric acid in it. Init?
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MCN
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 13 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://youtu.be/6-MC_ZEXQbw

Rust Eating compounds tested.
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Ayrton
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PostPosted: 09:54 - 14 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Better off just replacing rusty bolts, the coating is fucked and they will end up rusting again. A tooth brush wont do anything either, you'd probably need to wire wheel them to get the rust off.
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adam277
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 14 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Fair enough wire wool and wd40 good?

I mean, I am just trying to sell a bike. So I mean if it rusts again a few months later that is not my problem.
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A100man
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PostPosted: 10:09 - 14 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
adam277 wrote:
Fair enough wire wool and wd40 good?

I mean, I am just trying to sell a bike. So I mean if it rusts again a few months later that is not my problem.


To treat in situ I'd use one of those small toothbrush sized wire brushes , the brass one might be Ok but wears quickly. use WD40 if you like then wipe down with solvent (white spirit) and put a dob of silver paint on the heads with a fine brush. Tedious but doable.
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xX-Alex-Xx
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PostPosted: 10:17 - 14 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
A100man wrote:
adam277 wrote:
Fair enough wire wool and wd40 good?

I mean, I am just trying to sell a bike. So I mean if it rusts again a few months later that is not my problem.


To treat in situ I'd use one of those small toothbrush sized wire brushes , the brass one might be Ok but wears quickly. use WD40 if you like then wipe down with solvent (white spirit) and put a dob of silver paint on the heads with a fine brush. Tedious but doable.


Seems like a good time to get the Dremel out? Ones on the bottom left ..

https://ae01.alicdn.com/kf/HTB12XwWX7omBKNjSZFqq6xtqVXac/15pcs-Steel-Wire-Wheel-dremel-wire-Brush-burr-abrasive-head-dremel-tools-accessories-deburring-for-drill.jpg
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MCN
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PostPosted: 19:06 - 14 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
A100man wrote:
adam277 wrote:
Fair enough wire wool and wd40 good?

I mean, I am just trying to sell a bike. So I mean if it rusts again a few months later that is not my problem.


To treat in situ I'd use one of those small toothbrush sized wire brushes , the brass one might be Ok but wears quickly. use WD40 if you like then wipe down with solvent (white spirit) and put a dob of silver paint on the heads with a fine brush. Tedious but doable.


I wonder if that will work for the dents in the tank and the bend in the frame though? Thinking
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 14 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Get the loose rust off, treat with anti-rust gel (Bilt Hamber is my go-to) and paint. Hmmm... fasteners though, not worth the effort. Just buy new ones.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 16:09 - 15 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
Nobby the Bastard wrote:
I'm presuming, in that case, the stuff I have that makes rust go purple and then stops it ever rusting again has phospheric acid in it.


All of the rust converters I've seen or used were based on phosphoric acid. Thumbs Up
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jeffyjeff
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 15 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
After 18 years, the fasteners on my oilhead BMW were starting to look pretty grungy. The front cover bolts, caliper bolts, and leading edge of the front brake disc bolts in particular were brown with rust. I removed the bolts and dressed them with a wire wheel on my bench grinder. Then painted them with some high temp clear coat that I found at the hardware store. (When you are retired, you have time on your hands for shit like that). Bolts came out pretty good. It has been 3 years and they still look decent.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53047856751_92bf924ac9.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53047856741_4bfa4f104a.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53047273742_c77bca8db2.jpg
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dn38416
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PostPosted: 21:01 - 15 Jul 2023    Post subject: Reply with quote
My favourite is forch black magic, but as above I doubt it will last on this. For the price you're better off getting some bling-type new fasteners if you want to impress and add to selling price.
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