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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 08:44 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://taxjustice.uk/blog/how-would-a-wealth-tax-work-in-practice/

I would also put in an exemption for farmers, and I'd look at the largest farm by value versus productivity in the UK, and set that as the threshold for the payment. Farmers are a unique group where they primarily inherit the tools of their trade (land) and don't earn enough cash to purchase that land via other methods, i.e. they can ONLY inherit it, and without that inheritance mechanism, there would be a lot less farms and farmers.

Nobody is saying 'don't achieve, don't be successful'. Not one bit of it. However, can Elon Musk spend his wealth? No. Will he die with billions of net worth? Certainly. Is that fair? Not for the amount of work he's done. Same with JK Rowling, same with Warren Buffet etc etc.

I don't see what difference it makes if Jeff Bezos only has one yacht rather than five. Nobody, not one single person can see the material benefit of having two billion dollars in net worth versus one. The amount you need to live the most lavish lifestyle anyone has ever had is the same, and it's less than a billion dollars in cash. It's not a material difference versus a single mother on minimum wage who has to choose between eating and her child eating.

Personally? I've never fiddled my taxes. I've never worried about 'paying too much'. If there were a scheme that I could do that was legal but iffy where I could pay less tax I would not take it. I am not Jimmy Carr.

Fair is that everyone should have a roof over their head and enough food to eat. That's the minimum. If you want more, you work for it. Nobody is questioning that.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 09:45 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Fair is that everyone should have a roof over their head and enough food to eat.


So "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"?
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 10:09 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Fair is that everyone should have a roof over their head and enough food to eat.


So "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs"?


It's a decent maxim, but it seems that those in need are being ignored, and those with bloated excessive ostentatious wealth are being allowed to run roughshod over society and democracy.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
It's a decent maxim...


It's a polite way of saying the ends justify the means.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 12:17 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

and yet, it depends on the ends, and the means. Anything other than that is sociopathy, especially letting the poor die on the streets, or at best struggle to survive.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 14:19 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
Anything other than that is sociopathy...


And forcing people at gunpoint to labour for others is perfectly acceptable?
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 14:47 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Anything other than that is sociopathy...


And forcing people at gunpoint to labour for others is perfectly acceptable?


You don't need guns, just tax them so they are struggling and give the money to everyone that doesn't want to work for a living. Same result, less problems.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 15:10 - 15 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Polarbear wrote:
You don't need guns, just tax them so they are struggling and give the money to everyone that doesn't want to work for a living. Same result, less problems.


How do you collect taxes without guns? Fair enough, HMRC aren't waving Glocks in peoples' faces after missing the self-assessment deadline but they are the final backstop of all governments if you're a particularly difficult citizen.

Please note, I'm not saying there's a better way of collecting taxes but I object to claiming the moral high ground with the typical "eat the rich!" lines. Governments should be very apologetic to their people when they relieve them of their labours rather than treating us as indentured servants.
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 10:09 - 16 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
MarJay wrote:
Anything other than that is sociopathy...


And forcing people at gunpoint to labour for others is perfectly acceptable?


That's how tax works, duh. That's how it's always worked, and that's how it always will work.

Are you proposing a pure "I'm all right, jack" system?
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 12:31 - 16 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
That's how tax works, duh. That's how it's always worked, and that's how it always will work.


Historically incorrect but just because we (have to) do a thing doesn't make it any less evil.

Quote:
Are you proposing a pure "I'm all right, jack" system?


To varying degrees, this is what the world had prior to the early 20th Century but a) we don't have homogenous societies based on trust anymore and b) the State took over running the welfare safety nets from charities and the church.

But yes, I lean more to Ayn Rand than Karl Marx. Regardless, here's a sensible outlook on wealth tax from a Lefty:

Why Wealth Taxes Fail - Making Money Podcast
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 14:57 - 16 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you should perhaps look into what life was like before the government took over welfare safety nets. How some 'lords of the manor' cared about their serfs and peasants and some absolutely did not. How people often just died. How the lord of the manor or whoever could execute someone from a lower class because they looked at them funny.

The past is invariably worse than people believe it to be.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 18:50 - 16 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Someone somewhere got a bad deal in the past therefore we must hand it all over to the State to manage Rolling Eyes I'm unconvinced by that argument. I prefer to deal with the real rather than a fantasy utopia.

From the late 19th Century, great advances were made in water purity, sewage systems, food production and healthcare. Life expectancy rose sharply, people were happier...

But where are we now? In the US, half the population are obese with Europe not far behind. A mental health crisis brought on by Climate Change and Covid alarmism. A rising tax burden but dwindling public services. Articulate your frustration in the wrong way and you face a prison sentence... I could go on. No wonder the birth rates are dropping like a stone, people are fucking miserable: the sort of deep-seated despair that eats into the soul.

If you beat a dog every day how can you feign surprise when it eventually bites you?
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 06:27 - 17 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easy-X wrote:
Someone somewhere got a bad deal in the past therefore we must hand it all over to the State to manage Rolling Eyes I'm unconvinced by that argument. I prefer to deal with the real rather than a fantasy utopia.

From the late 19th Century, great advances were made in water purity, sewage systems, food production and healthcare. Life expectancy rose sharply, people were happier...

But where are we now? In the US, half the population are obese with Europe not far behind. A mental health crisis brought on by Climate Change and Covid alarmism. A rising tax burden but dwindling public services. Articulate your frustration in the wrong way and you face a prison sentence... I could go on. No wonder the birth rates are dropping like a stone, people are fucking miserable: the sort of deep-seated despair that eats into the soul.

If you beat a dog every day how can you feign surprise when it eventually bites you?


I doubt the obesity and mental health crisis are *caused* by welfare. It's a huge leap in logic. I also doubt the mental health crisis has a solid line to climate change and Covid. Do you know what would help peoples worries about climate change? Doing something about it.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 10:35 - 17 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
I doubt the obesity and mental health crisis are *caused* by welfare. It's a huge leap in logic.


I never said they were. You could even say people's lives initially improved despite the best efforts of the State. That being said, you do make a good point: the pendulum's swinging the other way now, could it be affected by the growing number of people on food stamps? I'll see if anyone's done any research Thinking

Quote:
I also doubt the mental health crisis has a solid line to climate change and Covid.


Research studies have been done on regarding Climate Change alarmism and Gen Z were the worst affected. Covid had wide ranging effects: impeding speech development in young children, exasperating the loneliness epidemic in old folks, increased rates of suicide... I can dig out the research papers if you're interested but I doubt facts would convince you.

Quote:
Do you know what would help peoples worries about climate change? Doing something about it.


In terms of individual mental health? Actually no. I've written an essay examining the mental health implications of activism. Again, I could post it but why consider research and evidence when you have a fantasy to propagandise Rolling Eyes
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MarJay
But it's British!



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PostPosted: 10:52 - 17 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

So your solution is just to bury our heads and ignore it?

Climate change is a fact, it's human caused, and we do need to take action. Mental health is vastly more affected by social media usage than it is by climate change specifically.

In the US the opiate epidemic is caused by poor quality health insurance that WILL stretch for extraordinarily strong painkillers, but won't stretch to surgery, physiotherapy or other treatments that may resolve chronic pain causing disorders. Do you know what we don't have in the UK? An opiate epidemic. We have other issues, but not that, not in the way the US does. Similarly people put up with crappy jobs with terrible managers in the US because they need their health insurance for themselves or their relatives. They can often not move because then the condition becomes 'pre existing' and the insurance won't cover them.

The fact I can quit my job tomorrow and live off of my savings is a huge thing that people don't appreciate. The ability to do that would give an overall improvement in employment conditions even without any direct economic (i.e. salary) benefit.

Your assertion is that somehow rich people will look after the poor if we remove the welfare state is patently incorrect, and is playing itself out right now with Jeff Bezos for example having a multi million pound wedding in Venice whilst avoiding tax and giving very little to charity. Forcing people like that to pay their fair share (not even *more* than I pay as a percentage of my net worth/income) would fund an awful lot of help for poorer people and the vulnerable. Any argument to the opposite is disingenuous, cruel and actually must come from some sense of worship for the type of people who would pay someone to scrape you off of their boot before helping you.

It seems that being given a boatload of money turns most people into complete d*ckheads, or perhaps most people are just d*ckheads, and they need someone to make them pay their share so that everyone in society can meet a minimum lifestyle.

This smug 'I'm going to lean right because it's my personality' schtick is shudder inducing, and it's pessimistic and nihilistic aspects are not the positive you think they are. I'm not even left of centre for pity's sake, I'm just saying that the super rich should pay their share and that money should be used to help the poor and vulnerable. I'm not suggesting funding lavish lifestyles for the poor, I'm not suggesting seizing the means of production, I'm not suggesting preventing people from becoming rich. I'm suggesting that the rich have too much power and influence, and are able to use that to then not pay the same proportion of tax that you or I pay. You will never be a billionaire, I will never be a billionaire, but I do know that a billionaire doesn't *need* to be a billionaire, and should not be avoiding tax. Passive income should be taxed the same as active income.
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Remember kids, bikes aren't like lego. You can't easily take a part from one bike and then fit it to another.
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Easy-X
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 17 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarJay wrote:
So your solution is just to bury our heads and ignore it?


Funny, but I never said that. I specifically said "I don't yet have the answers" and I specifically agreed with you that asset accumulation is getting out of hand. My objection is to the methodology.

Quote:
I'm not even left of centre for pity's sake


And yet you agree with classical Marxist rhetoric and base your opinions on "feels" rather than evidence Thinking

Quote:
perhaps most people are just d*ckheads


Indeed they are and this is the concept of the "New Soviet Man" comes from, that the fundamental barrier to bringing about a Socialist Utopia is the people themselves.

I will state this again: my priorities are my family, my friends and neighbours, my town, my county, my country in that order. From my point of view reversing the order or worse, extending and prioritising the welfare of people from outside of the country is a form of pathological compassion.

https://i.imgur.com/x4NXOMo.png
source
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A100man
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PostPosted: 22:37 - 17 Jul 2025    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well done boys - I think you 'out-brained' the OP anyway. Wink
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