Track Technique.

[mistergixer]

Question about down shifting on track:
When approaching a bend after a straight, and need to downshift a few gears, should you:
A, Go down through the box in sequence, re-engaging the clutch for each gear to make use of engine braking.(Obviously whilst using the brakes!)
B, Use the brakes and shift down to the correct gear in one go, i.e without engaging each gear.
???
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[MarJay]

AFAIK you should go down from the gear you are in through to the gear you want and use the brakes to control your speed so that when you let out the clutch you don't lock the rear.

G would be a better person to answer your question though.
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[Kirmit]

I would opt for B. It's the quicker method. In track racing you want to break as late as possible, option A results in longer, slower breaking.
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[Steve H]

Yeah Option B - but don't forget to count the gears down, there's nothing worse that the moment just after banging down through the box as you begin to let your clutch out and you realise that you're in 1st for a 2nd or 3rd gear corner
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[G]

You do want to brake as late as possible.

However, you also want to brake as hard as possible, but you generally don't want the rear to be jumping about, unless you are very controlled.

On a four stroke, if you go down several gears at once you will probably get some movement from the back.

You need to balance the engine braking with not actually locking the rear wheel up. In reality the engine braking will have little effect compared to the front brake.

So to prevent too much rear wheel chatter you generally want to leave your down changes fairly late. However, you want the bike to be settled as you turn in, so you need to be in the right gear before the corner.

Confused yet?

Basically, knock the bike down a gear at a time. Blip the throttle as you do so. Only change down again when the bike has reached the 'right' rpm - you should get a feel for this as you get used to riding the bike on track.
Make sure your last change happens a bit of distance before the corner, so the bike is settled.
Turning the idle speed up can also help prevent rear end chatter, amoungst other things.


On a track bike I try and have the biting point of the clutch really far out - so that only a very slight tweak is required to change gear.

[Silver]

One gear at a time for me. Far too messy and uncontrollable trying to do a few at once, and set yourself up for the bend. Get it wrong and your back end will be going everywhere as you try and turn in. Plus, with Option B you're making no use of the engine braking to help slow you.

[Gazdaman]

Agreed, one gear blippageness all the way.

Gaz

[VFR400UK]

One gear at a time isthe correct way, using the engine braking on the rear wheel and brakes on the front, which is why racers hardly ever use the rear brake.

In reality itwon't make a huge difference to your speed, so if your used to doing it a certain way, do it like that.

I find 120mph roundabout aproaches the best way to practice

[G]

[Kath#27]

I use a kind of combination - mainly option A (especially downhill when you need all the help you can get to slow down) but as quickly as possible, so you don't end up slowing down too early.

It's definitely tricky when you're pushing, on a fast straight-to-sharp-turn and you need to go fast, brake late, keep the bike settled (no endos or sliding) and make the turn!

[jjonth]

Option A, You want all the braking force you can get. If its a two stroke its easier as you don't have to blip the throttle or anything daft like that. You always want to be braking as hard as you can regardless.

[cunni]

if it were always the perfect corner you were aproaching, then option A sounds good.

If it is a dam fast corner leading onto a chicane, say from 4th at full lean, stand the bike up slightly then drop into a 1st gear flick, then go down two gears at once on the brakes, let cltuch out to get into corner, then down another as you flick through.

Again, all depends on the corners. You'll figure it out more when you try stuff out! Beware of the grass!

I find my self using different methods at various parts of each track. The longer and straighter a braking zone, the more engine braking I use. The more curved or short the braking zone, the more gears I downshift before letting the clutch out! But then I do have the use of a slipper clutch!

Just do what feels right to you. Try different things until something feels right, then you can concentrate on that and get faster!

Remember, there is no right or wrong way of doing things. One way will keep you (and you alone) upright and one way will make most of us fall off! If you study racing DVD's and watch the pro's, you'll see some bash down the gears, some leave it late, some go one at a time blipping the throttle, others step the rear out and use a ton of back brake. each to their own!
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[Merlin]

Different riders use different techniques !!- different machines benefit in different ways my advice would be try both at the same corner see what works and you feel comfortable with then move on to the next corner. The basics of it tho is to be in the right gear for machine speed which is relevant to engine revs - it can get quite confusing - ive found a slipper clutch helped me with this problem because it does not lock up the back wheel on downshifts and makes the bike more predictable
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[cunni]

In my next track session, i'm going to start playing with changing down whilst in higher revs and using rear brake to see how the bike handles and where it tries to go, as well as weighting pegs under rear braking, just to see if I can't get it turned slightly before actually tipping in. Rear wheel steering basically. Wish me luck, lol.
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[CoronaBoner]

[G]

You can get rear end chatter when braking for a corner and going down gears. This is caused by excessive engine braking.
The rear wheel is forced to go significantly slower than the road speed, causinging it to loose traction and judder.

The engine braking basically happens because there's not much fuel to go bang to make the pistons go up and down.

If you turn the idle speed up, the base line amount of fuel getting through to the engine will be higher on a closed throttle, so there will be less engine braking.

[BenBray]

How people get on the front brake while doing downchanges and remaining smooth all at once is beyond me. Especially while moving their body about and getting ready for the corner that they're coming up to in about 0.5 seconds!
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[G]

It's best to get into your hanging off position - I hadn't thought this until was told so. Watching moto gp etc confirmed that they were hanging off the bike before they started braking, even if that was halfway down the straight!

For downchanging, blipping the throttle and leaving the changes as late as possible helps a lot.

[Kickstart]

[Shaun]

[cunni]

You have too much finger on the brakes. try using two fingers instead of four, (usually the first two, but I use my middle two fingers) and try to only have the last bits of your fingers on the lever, the bits after the last joint, as this will allow your fingers to flatten out more as you blip the throttle without pulling more brake on.

Also, try blipping the throttle with the curve between your thumb and first finger instead of using the grip from the fingers themselves! This is why I use the middle two fingers, it leaves me more contact area on the twist gripp between my fist finger and thumb.
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[cunni]

Basic downshifting coming up to a corner (on the track only) for me:

Move my arse halfway off seat and my middle two fingers are reaching to cover the front brake, still accelerating and flat down on the tank, behind the screen.

When at my chosen braking point, I sit up into wind, keeping my upper body over the tank, arse still hanging off, pulling brake lever hard (I use slicks and have full race brakes, you may want to apply them a bit more gradually, but still strong). Very important point, I keep both knees pinned against the tank/frame (one leg is lower due to hanging off) and apply all my body load to the bike through the tank rather than the handle bars. My arms are bent at the elbows and nicely relaxed, taking no strain, so I can feel the breaking force and correct any steering changes. (also not cause any unwanted steering changes) My crotch is approx 2 inch off the tank when braking hard.

When the rev's get down to approx. 5000rpm I down shift to the next gear, using the clutch, blip the throttle to match revs. (You get used to how much) It is important to blip it enough and at just the right moment, as you don't want to be left feeding the throttle on and feeding the clutch out, you want to be turning the throttle on and off within 0.05 seconds max. Only just pull the clutch in to the biting point, no more. Set the biting point where the lever is almost fully let out, this way you spend less time pulling and releasing the lever.

Braking force is kept constant during this, see post above.

Every time the rev's get to 5000rpm, another downshift.

Brakes are graduallysoftened as the bike gets lent over more until at the desired lean for that corner, then the throttle is cracked open, to carry me to the appex with max. ground clearance and speed.

As I'm tipping the bike in, I'm also dropping my knee from pinned against the frame to hanging gentally outwards, not pointing at the floor, I'm leaning my upper body into the turn by droping my elbow and I'm turning my head and looking towards the apex point/exit of the corner. Outside elbow gripping the side of the tank, outside knee pressed into the tank, outside foot pressing hard on the footrest, inside foot right up high on the footrest, knee held just off the tarmac.

Coming down from 150MPH to around 30MPH, you will probably go down 3-4 gears in approx. 4-5 seconds, so that's one gear change per second, sometimes less. I occasionally go down two gears at a time or in higher revs, but I'm riding a fully race prep'd 1000cc V-twin and have a Cresent Suzuki slipper clutch, so I can actually get away with more.

Depending on how brave/controlled you are with your right foot, marginal rear brake can be used, especially at the tipping in point.

watch James toseland in the 2004 WSBK Championship at the French rounds in-particular, he looks like he is doing the funky chicken coming up to corners, as he's changing down gears so fast, his arms and whole body are being used to make it that quick. It is very physically demanding when you ride fast, as in not track day fast, racing speeds!

Hope I haven't missed anything too important there? Not neccessarily very suited to road riding.
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[BenBray]

[clarkee]

Cunni, you go on even more on here

[G]

Please note the avatar rules clarkee.

Otherwise welcome to the fourm, presume you're new era as well?

I'm doing minitwins with bemsee.